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Remember when Mike Huckabee was asked by a New York Times reporter if Mormonism is a cult or a religion and he answered: “I think it’s a religion; I really don’t know much about it.”
That makes 180 million of us.
The question of “cult” versus “religion” versus “sect” is an interesting one. What is the difference? From a relativistic point of view, of course, one man’s “religion” is another man’s “cult.” And Merriam-Webster’s shows that equivocation is built into the semantic nomenclature:
“Sect”: 1(a) a dissenting or schismatic religious body; esp: one regarded as extreme or heretical; (b) a religious denomination.
“Cult”: 2: a system of religious belief and ritual; 3: a religious regarded as unorthodox or spurious.
“Religion”: 2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices.
At what point does a religious sect become so deviant from its roots that it needs reclassifying as a cult? Can it be when the simple gospel is so overlaid with suffocating tradition that a church traverses land and sea only to make a convert “twice as much a child of hell as yourselves”? Like Huckabee, everyone will give his best guess, and the self-consistent Christian will make his judgments according to the touchstone of Scripture.
Isn’t it comforting to know the Lord isn’t confused: “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy
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Gloomy conservatives
The Lord’s Word is not confusing either.
The “Truth” is that ALL religions start out as cults. When they gather enough members that it becomes mainstream, then it’s reclassified as a religion.
Every religion believes they are THE religion and they and only they speak for some “God”. They are all equally valid and the common denominator is they all have “equal” evidence.
This may be an odd question, but is Mormonism as practiced today really all that “deviant from its roots?” Of course, I am defining its roots as the Book of Mormon and the Golden Tablets with a little Bible thrown in. I frequently find myself saying to people “They say they’re Christians, but they’re not. They don’t believe in Christ the same way we do.” I have concluded that essentially Mormonism is a different religion from Christianity.
There are elements of Christianity and Judaism in Islam, but it’s a different, very different religion from Christianity or Judaism. I see Christianity as the fulfillment of the promises of the Old Testament. I do not see Islam as the “next step” but rather a corruption of both Christianity and Judaism. Nor can I see Mormonism as the “next step.” Mormonism was something “new” like Islam.
I would have answered that it is a cult. It’s not that similar to Christianity.
The theology deviates substantially from anything Christian. I’d say Islam or Judaism is closer in theology than Mormonism.
Walter Martin defines “cult” in his book Kingdom of the Cults.
Of course he defines Islam as a cult too, and most everyone these days would say it’s a major religion.
At the very least I would classify Mormonism as a different religion than Christianity.
“The “Truth” is that ALL religions start out as cults.”,/i>
And I suppose as a Science believing secularist you have plenty of evidence for this? I mean since you’re all like - “there must be evidence!” - and all…
I’d say your “evidence” is just as “equal” as any other that you mention.
Whether it’s a cult or a religion, it’s different from Christianity.
Still, Romney’s my choice for President.
RDean has as much evidence for his anti-Biblical beliefs as Musing. They both ain’t got nothin’.
The day won’t come when I think Islam speaks for God, or that Mormonism does, for that matter. Whatever RDean thinks, that is irrelevant to the election.
The beauty of being an American is that I don’t have to believe in Romney’s religion to vote for him — not that I’ve decided to do so. All he has to be for me is an American who believes in our core principles, including the free market. If it’s a choice between Romney and a socialist, I won’t vote for the socialist. No scandal has touched Romney. The Clintons can’t say that by a long shot. Nor can Obama with that land deal with some sleazy guy. Nor can Giuliani with all his wives. And they all claim to be Christians.
(Feb. 5th is coming, and I haven’t received one call, one piece of mail from any Republican candidate.)
(Feb. 5th is coming, and I haven’t received one call, one piece of mail from any Republican candidate.)
Don’t worry, they’ll find you!
There’s no question that by Dr. Walter Martin’s standards what America’s key Founders — Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin — believed in was a “Christian cult,” and just as one might assert “Mormons aren’t Christians,” one would also have to assert, “those key Founders weren’t Christians.”
One major difference was those key Founders tended to belong to orthodox Churches (mainly the Anglican/Episcopal). But as I’ve noted many times, John Adams Congregational Church preached Unitarianism as of 1750 and eventually officially became a “Unitarian” Church. Denial of the Trinity certainly according to Walter Martin’s standards puts one in the “cult” territoriy.
Your religion is a religion. All the rest are cults. Unless you’re Rdean, in which case you worship “science” but deny the religiosity of it.
Although, in the case of Islam, the labels are interchangable. I don’t think it matters if you call Islam an “evil death cult” or an “evil religion of death.” Either is correct.
#3 NJLawyer,
Well said - you are spot on and my Irish friends would say.
Outkast. I’m with you. Mitt’s the best man for the job that has a chance to win. His being Mormon doesn’t bother me. I know many Christians who could learn to better follow Christ’s example, just by emulating the average Mormon.
I don’t see how you can say the Mormon religion isn’t some type of Christianity. When you go into the Mormon Tabernacle, the first thing you see is an enormous statue of the traditional Jesus (neatly trimmed brown beard, long brown hair, wearing a white Gandalf robe with sandals) hands spread out to either side. It’s been years since I’ve been there, but I seem to remember a halo and Jesuspower shooting out of either hand.
#11: you worship “science” but deny the religiosity of it.
I study science and certainly deny it’s religiosity. I have no faith in mysticism or the occult. I do sometimes read astrology predictions, but I take it as seriously as any other supernaturality. expealidosous.
Romney supports the “war” in Iraq. When asked why none of his five “of age” sons signed up to “protect” the country, his answer was, “Because they are doing something more important, helping get me elected”. Later, he said it was “only” a joke. Only a joke???? I’m glad he is one of yours.
There are nearly as many Mormons as there are Jews so based on size, the LDS belief system should be a religion and not a cult. There is also nothing extreme about Mormons that warrants considering them dangerous or maladjusted.
Just as Buddhism and Hinduism are considered two religions, I might consider Mormonism and Christianity to be two different religions.
Would Catholicism and Protestantism be considered separate religions? Catholics certainly consider protestants to be deviants from their belief system.
Romney shouldn’t receive negative publicity for his religion. There are no rumors of marital infidelity. There are no signs of political corruption. There are no issues of incompetence that plague other candidates.
My only issue with Romney are his stances on Iraq, torture, and his history of political change for expedience. None of these are connected to his religion. Mormonism is pro-life. The religion does not support any candidate. It will take sides on moral issues (such as abortion, gambling, or same-sex marriages) but not specific candidates or parties.
Romney’s past successes in business, government, and executive positions are attractive. I like the Democratic support for education and ending the war in Iraq.
I believe Romney is the best choice for reforming Health Care. I don’t believe he is the best choice for Iraq or for improving America’s education system.
You can look at cult as religious or socialogical.
It became popular in Evangelicalism to label “cult” as any group that messes with the Person of Christ or the work of Christ. This is the view that “Kingdom of the Cults” by Dr. Walter Martin promoted.
Socialogical deals with behaviors 1) Difficult exit process 2) Elitism 3) Unaccountable in Finance 4) Belief that if you leave their particular sect, you will miss out on anything good God has 5) Unquestioned authority 6) “No Talk” rule concerning any criticism 7) Warfare mentality - everyone else is attacking the “one, true church”. etc.
Rdean,
Is Buddhism considered to be a type of Hinduism? Is Christianity considered a type of Judaism?
Mormonism could be considered a separate religion and still an offshoot of Christianity. There are enough differences that this separation could be supported.
Here is the quote from Romney:
“The good news is, we have a volunteer Army and that’s the way we’re going to keep it. My sons are adults. They’ve chosen not to serve in the military in active duty and I respect their decision in that regard. … And one of the ways my sons are showing support for our nation is helping me get elected because they think I’d be a great president.”
Do not use quotes on your fictitious account. It is dishonest. You said:
“Because they are doing something more important, helping get me elected”.
This is a lie. It was never said.
“I’m glad he is one of yours.” Comparing Romney to Hillary, Obama, and Edwards, I think you will find no difference in the amount of military experience (or non-experience)… not that that matters…our last 2 presidents had no military experience. Do you think any of the children of the Democrats will serve in the military?
Outdeep,
1) Difficult exit process
2) Elitism
3) Unaccountable in Finance
4) Belief that if you leave their particular sect, you will miss out on anything good God has
5) Unquestioned authority
6) “No Talk” rule concerning any criticism
7) Warfare mentality - everyone else is attacking the “one, true church”.
Sounds like any church to me. Catholics qualify. Protestants qualify. Evangelicals qualify.
The Mormon church is probably the most financially accountable of any religion. Using these qualifications, the Mormon religion would not be a cult any more than other Christian sects.
#14: moral issues (such as abortion, gambling, or same-sex marriages
They are “moral” issues. It’s immoral to force a woman to have a baby. It’s immoral to tell “of age” adults what they can do for fun as long as it’s not hurting anyone. It’s immoral to keep two adults who are in love and have committed no crime seperated because what is immagined an unprovable, mystical spirit was supposed to have said some thousands of years ago.
It’s immoral to force mysticism and the occult on honest Americans who don’t want to be bothered with voodoo.
Actually, it doesn’t. I can leave my church and go to another without being shunned or being told I am walking into darkness. This wasn’t true when I was in a cult.
I don’t know if you are being a smart mouth or just being ignorant but those who have been in cults know that there is a big difference in how these things are handled in their group vs. a normal church.
Mormonism was labeled a cult by Kingdom of the Cults based upon their denial of orthodox understanding of the Person and Work of Christ. I am not convinced that is valid. And I certainly have no knowledge that Mormonism qualifies as a cult socialiogically.
Thanks.
#19 responding to #17.
#16: And one of the ways my sons are showing support for our nation is helping me get elected because they think I’d be a great president.”
A quote for which he apologized for, and rightly so. Their support would be much more appreciated it they actually enlisted and served. It’s much easier to send others off to die than to see your own children go.
I agree with Outdeep’s response to No. 17.
I spent quite a few years in a church that met all of Theo’s requirements — “except” the first. You could walk out any time and they didn’t care. But they would separate families that way, and many families broke up because one person left the church. There’s no real love of Christ in a place like that.
Theo writes: “Sounds like any church to me. Catholics qualify. Protestants qualify. Evangelicals qualify.”
I can’t say that about the church I attend now at all! I wouldn’t say that about the Catholic Church or other “mainliners” either. When I was little, the Catholic priest came around to visit now and again, but nobody ever made it difficult for us to leave. That was normal checking up on the flock, and they gave up when they were told we’d joined another church.
Perhaps one needs to experience a “cult” to truly understand, but most “mainline” churches don’t have ALL or even a majority of the problems Theo lists. Cults DO, and they do a lot of damage to the soul and to the family.
I guess I have not experienced a true cult.
If I were to leave Christianity and join Buddhism I think I would experience the following.
1) Difficult exit process - pressure from family and friends. Mother would break down in tears.
2) Elitism - Christians view themselves as the having the truth that others lack.
3) Unaccountable in Finance - I think this is dependent on the local control or the administrative measures in place.
4) Belief that if you leave their particular sect, you will miss out on anything good God has - of course. Christians go to heaven.
5) Unquestioned authority - The Bible
6) “No Talk” rule concerning any criticism - inerrancy of Christian Truths
7) Warfare mentality - everyone else is attacking the “one, true church”. - Christianity is under attack
21
I think Romney’s sons would help his campaign more by serving in Iraq. His family would seem more like hundreds of thousands of other families. His tears over Iraq and the deaths of others would seem more real.
If they really wanted to help his campaign, they would volunteer to enlist.
If I were a millionaire, I wouldn’t want my sons to go to Iraq though. Neither would Clinton, Edwards, Obama, or others. Unlike Romney, however, Clinton, Edwards, and Obama want to end the war. I think that is one difference.
Romney is the better choice as a CEO businessman. Obama and Edwards are the better choice to end the war in Iraq. Hillary is not a good choice in either respect.
Following up on Theo’s comment in 24 about how it would be politically advantageous for Romney if one of his sons in Iraq.
Has anyone ever run for oval office while having a son or daughter actively serving in the military? Has this ever occurred during a time of war?
In recent history, of course. Just curious.
Jon Rowe,
Dr. Walter Martin’s standards will not matter when our Founders stand before God on the day of Judgment. Only God gets to judge their faith in the end. Most of them clearly considered themselves “Christians” and said so. They deeply respected the moral values of basic Christianity and they believed that the free exercize of faith should not be prohibited by government. I’m glad and grateful.
I respect their wisdom and convictions and appreciate the legacy of faith our nation has long carried, thanks much to our Founders (which includes early colonial leaders and Puritans as well).
Theo: no, you have not experienced a true cult.
Let’s take “unquestioned authority.” This means you can’t argue with the higher ups. It’s an our way or the highway mentality. In point of fact, if you point out something in Scripture that opposes their doctrine, they tell you that God now speaks through them and there’s something wrong with you. You are told point blank not to think. Can you imagine Jesus saying that?
Let’s take the “no talk” rule — this isn’t about criticizing the Bible, this is about criticizing the powers that be and what they tell you to do, or not do, as the case may be.
Let’s take your No. 4 “Belief that if you leave their particular sect, you will miss out on anything good God has.”
I was told point blank that I will not go to heaven not because I do believe in Jesus Christ, but because I don’t believe in those particular “ministers” and who they think they are.
It can take years to get over the experience. Fortunately, I never lost my faith in Jesus Christ, and I have always been grateful that my larger family came from a variety of churches and that I had attended other churches as a small child.
In other words, Theo, NO, you have NOT experienced a true cult — based on your post 23. You don’t get it.
#23
Theo Godwyn,
I guess it’s a matter of degree. But that difference of degree is a big difference.
I haven’t been a cult member myself, but I understand that leaving is far more than difficult - traumatic would be no understatement. My mother sure wasn’t happy when I became a fundamentalist Christian, and we had arguments over it, but a person with fairly average “backbone” can stand up to that kind of “peer pressure.” Of course, the people who get drawn into cults (in the sociological sense) are likely those who are least able to withstand that kind of pressure.
I have been in churches where the pressure not to question their teaching or to criticize the leadership was very evident. People who were not content with that simply left. Naturally they were considered backslidden or apostate by those who remained - but they themselves were quite relieved to be out and generally felt no pull to return. (Obviously I was one of those who left, myself.) I did know one couple, fairly well, who left and then (I heard this second-hand) went back, publicly confessed their “sin” of questioning the church’s leadership, and were restored to fellowship. I never understood that, but I decided at that point that my friends and I had parted ways and it would probably do no good to try to discuss their decision with them.
Perhaps churches such as that border on being “cults” in a sociological sense. But they are the exception. I attend a church now where the official statement of faith is that the Bible is inerrant, but I am attending a class on the Bible where questions are encouraged, even the kind that question the Bible’s authority and inerrancy. Christians can admit that they have difficulty with certain passages. And they can disagree with the leadership of the church. I do hear some of the “Christianity under attack” talk, but it’s not pervasive.
#18:
Is morality based on society or the individual?
I would argue that laws of morality are written for society and not the individual. Why should others care if a person uses heroin or engages in prostitution or is involved in self-destructive behaviors? If the existence of these activities harms society however, they should rightly be targeted as immoral.
Some would argue that abortion, same-sex marriage, and gambling are harmful to society. Is this proven? I don’t believe so. But your argument is that the individual should take precedence over the needs of society. Historically, same-sex marriages are seen as destructive of society. Monogamous heterosexual marriages build a society.
Similarly, abortion destroys an individual that could benefit society and cheapens the value of each life in the society. Society could dictate that the individual belongs not to the woman, but to the society. If she kills the child, she is slaying another member of the society. Society has the right to defend that individual. Afterall, a fetus is not part of her body, her body would reject it if given the chance. It has its own mind, its own genetic imprint, and a future separate from the mother. I can decide to do what I want with my body, but if I harm another person in that process I no longer have that right.
25
I think McCain has a son in the military. Maybe Iraq.
Pauline, you are correct when you say leaving a cult is traumatic. In such a church, you have come to believe that you are a member of a distinct group of people. You do everything other Christians do, go to work, school, etc., but there is something that separates you not only from the world, but from other Christians as well. There’s an “there’s us, and then there’s the rest of them” attitude. You are part of a social system in such a church, and it is very difficult to walk away from something like that especially if you have been raised in it, especially if a lost of your personal extended family remains behind. Some families have been in these churches for generations, and it does not occur to people to question what they’ve been told.
The problem with this choice is, . . . IS it a choice? Can we as Believers make this choice knowing full well what this man believes, what he has spent most of his life believing in. He went on a missionary trip to France for two years to spread the beliefs of his cult.
Yes, we all want to vote for a President. We look at all the candidates and start the elimination process. Some of us are torn over this upcoming election, it’s like no other that I have witnessed.
When there is a choice to make, do we choose between good and evil? Do we choose on the side of what is best for us as a nation, our own interests, our money, our future.
What future do we have if we choose someone who would bring moral shame to our schools, and encouragement to our children not to be ashamed of sin?
What future do we have if we vote for someone who has always been a member of a cult? Does God give us the OK to choose someone like this.
Is our future as Americans based first on economic gain, or do we put our trust in the LORD Jesus Christ and stand up for what we know is right. Will GOD honor our voting for a cultist? I don’t want to stand before GOD Almighty and tell him I voted for a cultist, because it was in the best interests of my country- What are the interests of GOD? What are HIS wishes, HIS Will? Do we trust HIM?
What if the LORD JESUS CHRIST was down here on earth, and HE was going to vote for the President of the United States, do you honestly believe that JESUS would vote for a man who believed that Satan was HIS brother?
I weep for this country, I weep for the decision’s which every Born Again Christian will make. Those who are not Believers don’t understand, but those of us who are, know better. Our hearts are pricked by this decision, our knees will one day bow to a HOLY GOD, how can we vote for a man who believes HIS Son is Satan’s brother-
Then I would certainly not consider the Mormon religion a cult. It doesn’t qualify under those standards. At least not the mormon church centered in Salt Lake City.
Mormons come and go. There are many who have joined and many who have left.
While Mormons have a stronger view of authority, they are certainly allowed to have different viewpoints. Look at Senate Majority leader Reid versus Mitt Romney. Both are considered active mormons with opinions that differ from each other and their church leaders. Neither have been excommunicated or are considered apostate.
Many mormons feel they are victims of prejudice (and perhaps rightly so). Christians feel this same way though.
The mormon church certainly has a very accountable financial system. I admire them for this. Corrupt leaders who mishandle funds are quickly excommunicated. The leaders were successful businessmen who are independently wealthy. They serve not for wealth but for their beliefs. Mitt Romney takes this attitude to politics. He is not seeking wealth and should be admired for this.
Huckabee (wedding gifts), Giuliani (mistress, appointees), McCain(Keating Five), Obama(Voting Donations) , and Clinton (too many to list) have all had major financial embarrassments over political corruption.
Romney and Edwards have not had these same issues…as far as I am aware.
Victoria,
Funny that you felt God had His hand in Iowa’s election. What about New Hampshire, Wyoming, and Michigan? Did God withdraw from politics now? Hahaha.
Here’s some good news.
U.S. Abortion Rate Falls to Lowest Level in Decades http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20080117/hl_hsn/usabortionratefallstolowestlevelindecades
I would not vote for someone based on race, gender, religion, or age. It cheapens the vote and makes anyone who does not conform to the majority an outcast.
Obama - first 1/2 black president
Clinton - first female president
McCain - oldest president
Romney - first Mormon president
Who really cares?
The Mormon church has stated that it does not believe that Jesus is Satan’s brother.
Unless of course…
Satan is a fallen Angel…
Angels are sons of God…
Jesus was the Son of God…
We are all children of God…
In that case, all Christians believe that Jesus was Satan’s brother. But Victoria likes to twist words and make false claims.
Officially, the mormon church declared that it does not believe that Jesus and Satan are actual brothers. They believe Jesus is the “only begotten in the flesh.”
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/answering-media-questions-about-jesus-and-satan
Victoria and Huckabee are therefore wrong in claiming that.
Why should one of Mitt Romney’s sons have to serve in the military for him to support the war in Iraq? Has John Edwards sold his million-dollar home and moved in with that “second America” he is always carrying on about? Did Hillary Clinton’s daughter attend the public schools she demands that every taxpayer support? Why hasn’t Barrack Obama moved to the 9th Ward of New Orleans to live among those whose dream he says he is fulfilling?
Governor Romney is being held to a different standard by many on the secular left and the Christian right. Christians who would normally revere even a secular man with his credentials and lifestyle are among his biggest critics. Nevermind that his unorthodox beliefs have led him to be honorable and compassionate. And secular people who have never cared that Harry Reid, the ridiculously liberal Senate Majority Leader, is a Mormon now have all these concerns about the role of Governor Romney’s faith. I guess that if politician’s Mormonism influences him to take leftist positions such as opposing the war in Iraq, he gets a pass.
Anyway you slice this, there’s a lot of bigotry going on here.
VICTORIA asked (at #32), “What are the interests of GOD? What are HIS wishes, HIS Will? Do we trust HIM?”
I think when it comes to voting in a political contest like ours, God’s interest is for you to vote (in your words) “in the best interests of [your] country.” (you you are still the only one who can freely make that decision for yourself).
I appreciate your concerns, Victoria. I have decided that I can vote for a Mormon on the basis of believing it to be in the best interest, overall, of my country. I don’t think God feels any competion for my loyalties based on that vote for a flawed candidate in a presidential election.
The mormon church likes to play with words Theo. They don’t mean the same things Christians do.
Victoria, I don’t think Jesus would vote to tell you the truth. I’m born again in the spirit to Christ, not to America. He’s way above politics (plus he’s not an American and doesn’t have the right to vote.)(I’m not being flip.)
I have a problem with Mr. Romney’s beliefs just as you do. That’s why I think Mormonism is a different religion even if it does have aspects of Christianity in it. And I suspect I won’t make a decision about Romney until I’m in the voting booth (or a lot closer to Feb. 5th).
The argument I would make in “favor” of voting for Romney despite his Mormonism is that he is an American who fits all the requirements of the Constitution to be president. We don’t have a religious test in our Constitution. Our government is NOT something this Christian worships. Having spent time in an “odd” church, I can say that the people were essentially normal, God-fearing people, but their beliefs didn’t follow Christ’s teachings in that they had a little added on in there. They would never ever think of running for dogcatcher, would never ever sully themselves to even talk about politics, that’s how “good” they were. Perhaps I see Mr. Romney through blue or yellow lenses rather than rose-colored ones, but as a political leader, I wouldn’t count him out simply because of his Mormonism.
Now, would I be so “laissez-faire” about this if he were a Muslim? Probably not in this point in time! But there’s nothing in Romney’s life that says he is immoral. He’s conducted himself in an exemplary manner when you think about it, so I don’t fear his religion. The one I would have to take on faith would be Giuliani: would he really nominate a Supreme I’d be happy with like Alito? That’s a leap of faith for me.
Make It Man,
Yes, Christians are honest and forthright. Mormons are deceptive and lying. I see your point.
If they say that they don’t believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, why should we believe them?
Why should they be free to make up their own doctrine? Christians are much better at making up their doctrine for them. It sounds like a satanic religion if Jesus and Satan are brothers.
If only those mormons weren’t so obedient to God’s commandments. The Satan’s religion idea would stick much better.
Don’t get the wrong idea. I am not voting for Romney. Not yet anyway.
I disagree with Romney on Stem Cell Research, Iraq, and Immigration.
I also think that the Democrats will do better for Education and Economic Growth.
Unless something changes, I will vote for Obama. I dislike his inexperience but I prefer that to Hillary’s experience with failure. Edwards is too populist for me. I am not an ardent supporter of unions. They provide high pay for unskilled workers and cause inflation in prices.
The “Truth” is that ALL religions start out as cults. When they gather enough members that it becomes mainstream, then it’s reclassified as a religion.
I don’t understand how that is wrong. There was a time, before it became mainstream, when Christianity was an underground cult. This is historically accurate.
Theo, the LDS don’t seem to be very forthright about their own doctrine these days, but perhaps that is only out of ignorance. Or perhaps they are having their own wave of “liberalism” affecting (infecting?) what they actually believe. I know that I have personally interacted with LDS missionaries at my own front door who wished to present themselves as “just another Christian denomination.” When I pointed out to them that they differed radically from orthodox Christianity they began to backpedal.
Here are a few quotes from LDS publications on this issue:
“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind” (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15—this book was “written and published under the direction of the General Priesthood Committee of the Council of the Twelve of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”).
“On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers….But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother (The LDS publication Ensign, June 1986, p. 25).
Here are a couple of web articles (including links/references to original sources) that deal with this issue:
http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=2403
http://renaissanceguy.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/huckabee-mormons-and-satan/#comments
Theo, I’m wondering if you misunderstand MakeItMan when he says “The mormon church likes to play with words Theo. They don’t mean the same things Christians do.”
If the Mormon’s think they’re “born again,” I doubt it has the same meaning as it does to me. What they think are “apostles” isn’t the same as what I think they are.
RDean, as I recall, in the truly early days, Peter even preached in the temple, so Christianity wasn’t an “underground cult” until the persecution began.
I will not vote for Romney. It can be said that Jesus Christ isn’t an American, however, it can’t be denied that HE has blessed this country, HE died for everyone in this country, whether they accept that or not. In good conscience I cannot vote for a man who believes that JESUS CHRIST is the brother of Satan . . . Satan who was once an angel, and wanted to be equal with GOD, thrown from Heaven.
Below it is stated that Joseph Smith made the statement that he would take God’s place. Smith believed that God would get other kingdoms but he (Joseph Smith) would get the kingdom that God has now.
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14
If you people don’t believe that the Mormon’s are very well educated in their cult, they know this material, they aren’t ignorant of their beliefs.
Number three is the one which has the information which the Mormon’s don’t make public. Their converts find this out AFTER they become members.
1. Official LDS/Mormon doctrine
2. The Book of Mormon
3. The books which contain the LDS/Mormon doctrine
TJ,
Certainly the LDS are not just another Christian denomination. They shouldn’t try to portray themselves as one. There are marked differences.
I still think the issue of Jesus and Satan as brothers is simply an issue of semantics. Mormons see everyone as spirit children of God. This includes Jesus, Satan, and you and I. Christians see Angels, Jesus, and Mankind as three different types of individuals that are all children of God.
The argument could be made that Christians believe that Satan and Jesus and Mankind are all brothers since God is the Father of all. It is semantics.
Mormons see Jesus as the only begotten of the Father. They do not believe in the trinity but they believe that Jesus is divine.
I remember reading a quote from an early Roman that described the Christian cult. Certainly the Jews considered the Christians to be an early cult. Christianity became a religion when it increased in size and influence.
Mormonism is certainly capable of being considered an offshoot religion from Christianity. They have many similar beliefs but many different ones.
I would call it a different religion. I would not even attempt to parse through “sect” or “cult” status.
I would certainly rather vote for Romney than Huckabee. Huckabee wants to impose a 30% sales tax which the poor would have rebated. How would this affect the middle class? I certainly wouldn’t want to pay $5 per gallon for gas.
Truthfully, though Huckabee would never get such an absurd proposition to pass congress. I have a suspicion that he would not get many of his ideas to pass. Especially since he would have a dominant democratic congress to deal with. They would never allow such a burden to fall on the middle class while allowing the upper class to escape the tax burden that they carry now.
Huckabee’s emphasis on evangelicals would fail him in a general election so he is essentially not electable. Huckabee needs to quit campaigning to be the next evangelical president and start campaigning to be the next republican president.
Theo, I don’t see myself as an equal to Jesus. I see Jesus as an equal to God, the Father and the God, the Holy Spirit. You have stated that Mormons do not believe in the trinity, so I don’t see how you can say it is simply an issue of “semantics.” That’s a little more than “semantics.”
Nor does this Christian think of angels as the “children” of God. I’d like to know what hat you pulled that out of.
Huckabee knows who God is, he doesn’t expect to become God, and he certainly doesn’t believe that JESUS is the brother of Satan.
I would rather have Huckabee and $5.00 gas- This isn’t about money, its about a country whom GOD has blessed, and we are the recipients.
Following someone who believes in Jesus Christ as God’s Son, not Satan’s brother is much more important than compromising the TRUTH for a buck.
The LORD will direct Huckabee if he wins. God has directed many a President who trusted in HIM!
I still think the issue of Jesus and Satan as brothers is simply an issue of semantics.
Theo, I would agree with you here when you raise the issue of semantics. However, there is an ontological relationship b/t Lucifer and Christ which the LDS do not wish to acknowledge. At the same time, it is also clear that they do not have a positive view of the evil one — rightly so — and it seems that is the problem that was raised with Huckabee’s comment (i.e., the idea that if someone says “brother”, it indicates some sort of affection; obviously Mormons do not believe this).
But the issue of semantics is really at the heart of everything that proceeds out of the LDS church. When a Mormon says “Jesus Christ” or “God”, even though he is using the same words, he is differing widely from traditional orthodox Christian beliefs. The Christ of Mormonism is not the Christ of Christianity, and certainly the concept of God is nowhere close to the same. Likewise, when a Christian uses words like “salvation,” “justification,” or “atonement” with a Mormon, he might get a lot of head nods, but the words are being defined completely differently.
Mormonism is certainly an offshoot of Christianity, because it is a Christian heresy. So is Islam, if we wish to be technical. Even though I greatly disagree with him about his near-blind support of Romney, I think Hugh Hewitt has made a good point about blithely using the term cult to describe Mormonism. “Cult” conjures up images of kidnapping and brainwashing members and living in isolated compounds and the like (read: Jim Jones, Branch Dividians, etc.). Certainly that is not true for Mormons, in the same sense. Nevertheless, Mormons seem to wish to be considered to be Christians, and that is not true either, unless we wish to completely rob the term of any real meaning.
There was an interesting exchange during GOP debate back in November. This was the debate that was on CNN and sponsored by YouTube. It allowed the audience to submit questions via video clip.
A strange young man held up a hard bound copy of The Holy Bible to the camera.
He asked: Do you believe every word of this book? Specifically, this book that I am holding in my hand. Do you believe this book?”
Below are the Romney and Huckabee answers.
50
Nor does this Christian think of angels as the “children” of God. I’d like to know what hat you pulled that out of.
The “Hat” that I pulled that out of is the Bible.
Angels are referred to often as the “sons of God”.
Angels are benai elohim, the “sons of God”.
God has angelic sons, human sons, and sons of divine nature. If they are all sons, then in some way they are all brothers.
John 20: 17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus calls his disciples his “brethren” and says he is going to “my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
Victoria,
“The LORD will direct Huckabee if he wins. God has directed many a President who trusted in HIM!”
Like George W.?
We can thank George’s divine guidance for the failing economy, the war in Iraq, the poor reaction to Katrina, the immense deficit, and the plummeting American dollar.
If Huckabee will give us another 4 years of this kind of divine leadership, I think I’ll pass. I’ll take Hillary over 4 more years of Bush-like divine leadership.
mormonism: sect
judaism: religion
islam: i’d go with sect on that one…mohammed was influenced by judaism and christianity.
christianity: sect by socialogical standards, but i know different…mwuhuwahahhaaa!
scientology:CULT!!!!!!!!
A cult is simply any religion newer or smaller than your own.
#16 Theo,
Bush was an officer and fighter pilot in the Air National Guard. You may not call this military experience but you would be wrong. He was not a veteran of a foreign war but most men with military experience aren’t VFW’s either.
Theo, I’m obviously missing something.
How does your citation to John 20:17 relate to angels?
I have no doubt that angels are a creation of God, but I don’t know where you find that they are His children. Are you talking about Job? Please explain.
Mormons and the military - Historically Mormons tend to fall into the Conscientious Objector category. They had more of them than just about any other any other major religion in the USA. There is nothing at all wrong with that and they do not hide it. The volunteer US military really helped them in that regard. The kids, if they can afford it, go on 2 year missions usually before they go to college and I look at that as a substitute for serving their country indirectly.
There are many Mormons in the military service too and there is no question that Mormonism is a religion - not a cult or a sect. There are many cults and sects that have splintered off from the Mormon religion.
Or could a Christian here explain what Theo is getting at in #54.
Mormonism is a cult because they believe they can work so hard at doing good things to become a “god” themselves. They also believe that you are a better “god” if you have lots of children. When you have built up enough “goodness”–enough to be a god, you can go to another planet with your children. Now if that is a cult, I don’t know what is. And, Utah has the highest suicide rate in the nation due to Mormons killing themselves because in trying to become perfect to become a god, they find they cannot and thus have failed. So, they kill themselves in shame.
NJL
He is confusing the Scripture.
Thank you, Victoria. You’ve calmed my brain. I knew there was something wrong, but I don’t know how to correct him.
Rosiebelle - 62
How sad is your state? Depression rates ranked
Survey says Utah has the blues but South Dakota’s days are bright
By Melissa Dahl
MSNBC
updated 3:06 p.m. ET Dec. 4, 2007
Cheer up, Utah. That state, with West Virginia and Kentucky close behind, were just named the saddest in the country in a new report by Mental Health America.
The study ranks the 50 states and the District of Columbia based on rates of depression and suicide. Researchers found that states with easier access to mental health resources had lower suicide rates.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22087867/
————————-
A study from Mental Health America ranks the most depressed states in America. Here they are, ranked from happiest to saddest.
1. South Dakota
2. Hawaii
3. New Jersey
4. Iowa
5. Maryland
6. Minnesota
7. Louisiana
8. Illinois
9. North Dakota
10. Texas
11. Georgia
12. Vermont
13. Nebraska
14. Florida
15. California
16. Massachusetts
17. Pennsylvania
18. Virginia
19. New York
20. New Hampshire
21. Alaska
22. Michigan
23. District of Columbia
24. Delaware
25. Arizona
26. Alabama
27. North Carolina
28. South Carolina
29. Kansas
30. Wisconsin
31. Tennessee
32. Montana
33. Mississippi
34. Colorado
35. Washington
36. New Mexico
37. Oregon
38. Connecticut
39. Indiana
40. Arkansas
41. Maine
42. Wyoming
43. Ohio
44. Missouri
45. Idaho
46. Oklahoma
47. Nevada
48. Rhode Island
49. Kentucky
50. West Virginia
51. Utah
NJL, looks like your state is third for happiest!
Rosiebielle,
Utah does not have the highest suicide rate in the nation. Alaska, Nevada, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, and Colorado are all higher. They are all mountain states so there is a correlation between geography and suicide. There is no statistical correlation between being mormon and suicide. Many of the tables are age-adjusted. This inflates the number of suicides in mormon communities as well since they are younger on average than other communities.
Mormons in Massachusetts do not have a higher rate of suicide than christians in Massachusetts. You are jumping to errant conclusions. You want to reinforce your opinion that mormonism is a satanic cult and therefore find causation that is not supported by data.
Victoria,
Are Angels considered the “sons of God”? Yes or No.
Theo,
Do some research Theo, depressionn and suicide are very high for some areas. Utah is ranked 51, which means it is the most depressed and suicide.
As far as angels are concerned, answer the question yourself. You Theo are the one who posted it first, making your statement.
American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419
This study shows that the suicide rate in Utah is lowest among mormons who attend church. It is much lower than the national average.
It is much higher for non-mormons living in Utah. It is not the mormon religion that kills them. It is the mountain air. The mormon religion actually has a protective effect against suicide relative to those not attending mormon services.
Victoria, I came back here and went directly to the end and saw your post and said “What?”
I then went to the link and saw that this is because we have “access” to help! We have a lot of shrinks here, that’s true. I also doubt that it’s mountains per se or geography that causes suicide. Loneliness, chemical imbalances, are more likely causes.
I also went to my Nelson Study Bible, and according to them, yes angels are the “sons of god,” but they are also saying that the Lord sits as Supreme King and that the angels serve Him, not that these “sons of god” are equal to Him. Moreover, in Job, Satan needs the permission of the Lord to harm Job, indicating that the Lord limits Satan’s power. They are not His equal. They also point to the term “sons of god” in Genesis 6:1, as angels who were enemies of the Lord. I’m not seeing any equality between Jesus and the angels. They are not the same type of entity, for lack of a better phrase. Angels are certainly not “begotten” as Christ was, so I don’t think you can say The Son of God (Jesus) is one of the “sons of God.” We humans, do become “joint heirs with Christ” (provided we are believers) (see Romans 8:17) through “adoption” and in that sense are children (or sons) of God. We become joint heirs with Christ, the angels don’t. I don’t think you can just “exchange” one group for another and call them “equal” or one and the same.
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Young Mormon men living in Utah who closely adhere to the dictates of their faith are less likely to commit suicide than their peers who are less active in the church, study findings show.
The Mormon Church is known formally as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS).
For more than 10 years, 15- to 34-year-old males in Utah have had suicide rates markedly higher than those seen nationally. In fact, in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24.
“These results provide evidence that a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide,” Dr. Sterling C. Hilton of Brigham Young University in Provo, Utah, and his colleagues write in the March 1st issue of the American Journal of Epidemiology.
NOTE:
Well wouldn’t you know it, it’s the Brigham Young University in Provo, and his colleagues which say “These results provide evidence that a low level of religious commitment is a potential risk factor for suicide,”
Looks like they can’t own up to the fact that a cult might be the problem. Their excuse is lame! It has nothing to do Theo with your claim of:
-“It is not the mormon religion that kills them. It is the mountain air.”-
Theo your excuse doesn’t match up with Dr. Hilton from Brigham Young, maybe you should clue him in!
Years 1991-1995
Here are the statistics: suicides per 100,000 (ages 15-34)
Mormon Utahns attending church: 12 per 100,000
Mormon Utahns not attending church: 60 per 100,000
Non-Mormon Utahns: 53 per 100,000
US Averages: 24 per 100,000 (ages 15-34)
Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Montana, and Arizona all have high suicide rates.
The common factor is not religion.
Numerous studies have shown that attending religious services has a protective effect against suicide. This protective effect is equally strong for the mormon religion.
Theo
You might not be aware that many ‘cults’ have high suicide rates, and a high rate of mental illness.
Theo - 72
Please give me the link to your statistics.
Victoria,
“As far as angels are concerned, answer the question yourself. You Theo are the one who posted it first, making your statement.”
I answered the question already.
54 Angels are named benai elohim, the “sons of God”.
I don’t believe that this makes them equal to Jesus or equal to God. Mormons don’t believe that either. I don’t believe that Jesus is Satan’s brother. Mormons also don’t believe this, to some respect.
Mormons believe that Satan was an angel, a son of God , who wanted to become like Jesus and like God. He therefore provoked the war in Heaven. He wanted to take Jesus’ position on the right hand of God.
Mormons see Satan as evil and hungry for power. They see Jesus as the divine only begotten Son of God. They are both children of God and therefore in some sense “brothers”. When the Mormon church was asked directly if it considers Satan and Jesus to be brothers, the answer was no. Jesus was the only begotten. Satan was not.
Does that answer your question, Victoria?
Still not sure what you believe. Other than that mormons are evil.
I already listed it.
American Journal of Epidemiology 2002;155:413-419
I could email you the PDF if you wish.
I would say after reading the information below, that Utah has a serious mental health problem.
“According to the 2005 Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System, 28.2% of Utah high school students reported feeling sad or hopeless, 16.2% seriously considered attempting suicide, 14.1% made a suicide plan, 8.4% attempted suicide, and 3.0% were treated by a health care provider for a suicide attempt.”
“Editorial Note: The findings in this report indicate that suicide has been an important cause of death for young men in Utah. From 1988-1992, the suicide rate for young men in Utah was higher than the national rate, and suicide was relatively more important in Utah because of lower death rates from other causes in these age groups. The UDOH is gathering and analyzing additional data on suicide in Utah to better identify high-risk populations and potential interventions.”
“How Does Utah Compare With the U.S.?
For nearly two decades, the Utah suicide rate has been higher than the U.S. rate (16.6 versus 10.6 per 100,000 population in 2005).”
http://ibis.health.utah.gov/indicator/important_facts/SuicDth.html
Theo - 76
YOU WRITE……“54 Angels are named benai elohim, the “sons of God”
Please give me the exact Scripture representing these 54 angels.
#79
Victoria,
Theo was referencing his own post #54 where he had stated that angels are called benai elohim.
In Job 1:6 and 2:1 it says the “sons of God” came to present themselves before the Lord, and every Bible and Bible study I have ever had says it refers to angels (including Satan).
Pauline,
I know what you are saying, however Theo isn’t able/willing to give the “54 Angels are named benai elohim, the “sons of God” as he claims in post #76.
THEO - “Mormons believe that Satan was an angel, a son of God , who wanted to become like Jesus and like God. He therefore provoked the war in Heaven. He wanted to take Jesus’ position on the right hand of God.”
This is totally false. This is what Christians believe. Mormons believe that God was once human on another planet and became a god. Now he is having spirit children with his wife - the first born was Jesus and the second was Lucifer. So they are spirit brothers but not brothers in the flesh. This is what they mean when they say he is the only begotten in the flesh. They think Jesus became divine when he died. I could continue but there is so much more that is not Christianity.
Victoria.
I was referencing post #54 like Pauline said. You should read more carefully. Pauline is trying to tell you something.
The term “benai elohim” is translated “sons of God” and is a reference to angels. I realize that being sons of God does not make them equal to the only begotten Son of God, Jesus, but it does create a close relationship.
Victoria,
Have you looked at that report?
Felt Sad or Hopeless - Utah 28.2%
Worse than UT - Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, New Mexico, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, West Virginia
Seriously Considered Suicide - Utah 16.2%
Worse than UT - 16 states
Made a suicide plan - Utah 14.1%
Worse than UT - 14 states
Attempted Suicide - UT 8.4% (better than national average)
Worse than UT - 25 states
Suicide Attempt treated - UT 3.0%
Worse than UT - 13 states
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/SS/SS5505.pdf
You also make a correlation between Utah and mormons that may not exist. Utah also has the lowest rate of teen smoking, alcohol abuse, and marijuana use.
At least one study says that the mormon religion has a protective effect vs suicide and that non-mormons in Utah have a much higher rate of suicide vs mormon youth.
Theo,
If you can’t give the references to Scripture as being “sons of God” as you claim..
then I will conclude, you don’t know.
Theo, I wouldn’t even think of making a comparison between suicide and smoking.
THEO posts….. “Utah also has the lowest rate of teen smoking, alcohol abuse, and marijuana use.”
This Theo is your comparison, as if it is one? Smoking is as devastating as taking ones life? Or alcohol, marijuana? Try telling that to the parents of those children who took their lives.
Have have the Mormons forgotten or maybe they never knew, that JESUS CHRIST provided Salvation by HIS death on the Cross?
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Acts 4
Joseph Smith’s name isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Bible as being part of Salvation.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:4-7
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Victoria,
You are fanatic in your belief that mormonism is evil. Sadly, you don’t seem to understand. Alcohol and tobacco are the biggest killers in America. Deaths from alcohol abuse and drug abuse are far higher than deaths from suicide. Drunk driving is the leading cause of death among teens. Utah had the lowest rate of alcohol involved traffic fatalities. In fact, they are 1/3 the rate of the next lowest state. Phenomenal really. Try telling the parents of those children who died in a drunk driving accident that alcohol or marijuana are not important. Auto accidents are the leading cause of death among teens. One third of these are alcohol induced.
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSF2005/810616.pdf
I have already shown evidence that mormonism cannot be blamed for high suicide rate in Utah. Mormon youth who attend church are well below the national average in suicide rate. They are 5 times less likely to commit suicide than non-mormon Utah youth.
Smoking is one of the greatest killers in America. Far greater than suicide.
85,
Mormons have the right to believe what they will about salvation. I will not argue with them. It is unrelated to any topics we are discussing. Why do you even bring it up?
The fact is you have been wrong on a number of topics already. Now you go back to spewing venom that is born of your hatred for mormonism.
I pity you. I really do. You are consumed by your hatred for mormons that it blinds you to many realities. Any epidemiologist could see that the root cause of suicide is not mormonism. Yet you cling to this fact blindly as if it means something important to you. Do you want mormon youth to die? Doesn’t it inspire you that religion can have a protective effect for teens? Are you glad to see that the abortion rate in America is dropping? The abortion rate in Utah is much lower than the national average. One of the lowest in America. Isn’t that a positive effect of mormonism?
“God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me.
Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet”
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409). Joseph Smith
NOTE:
Joseph Smith boasts that he has done more than Jesus. Smith boasts “I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.”
And who follows Joseph Smith, the leader, founder of the Mormon Church? Would it be Romney, would this be the man who follows Smith, claims to be a Christian. Does Romney believe that Smith has done more than the LORD JESUS CHRIST? This question needs to be answered by the Romney!
82
“This is totally false. This is what Christians believe.”
It is what mormons believe as well. Here is what the mormon church web site says about Satan.
Satan, also called the adversary or the devil, is the enemy of all righteousness and of those who seek to follow God. He is a spirit son of God who was once an angel “in authority in the presence of God”. But in the premortal Council in Heaven, Lucifer, as Satan was then called, rebelled against God. Since that time, he has sought to destroy the children of God on the earth and to make them miserable.
Victoria,
I am not interested in your rabid ravings about the mormon church. I am certain that mormonism has many errors. I am the wrong person to discuss Joseph Smith with. One of my classmates did a paper on him in High School. I did mine on James Madison.
I really don’t trust much of what you say though. It seems much different from reality. I am sure Joseph Smith was not a villain like you would have others believe. Mohammed was no villain. Neither was Buddha. yet you would portray all of them as anti-christs.
Theo,
Some of us have spent YEARS, studying the cults, its not new to us, its what we do.
This obviously comes as a surprise to you, although I doubt you would admit it. Cults don’t advertise their wares, they knock on doors, and go house by house, deluding those who will listen.
There are not a multitude of paths to an Eternity with the LORD. . . only ONE! Anyone who claims to know the truth, and subverts the Gospel of Jesus Christ is an anti-christ. If you call that person a villain, I agree with you.
chamomile and hops
If you want to know what the Mormon’s believe, buy the books which have the ‘real doctrine’ in them, not the ‘Book of Mormon’
‘The Pearl of Great Price’
‘History of the Church, Vol 6′
‘Mormon Doctrine’
‘Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith’
God resides near a star called Kolob” Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; and Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.
The Mormons will always point you to “The book of Mormon” OR to their website. Have you read anything other than their website or ‘maybe’ The Book of Mormon?
Theo - 90
YOU WRITE….“I am the wrong person to discuss Joseph Smith with. One of my classmates did a paper on him in High School. I did mine on James Madison.”
What does this information above have to do with Joseph Smith and the Mormons, or your paper in High School. It’s inmaterial as to what we are talking about. I don’t give a hoot what your classmate wrote in High School about Smith, or yours on Madison. How silly!
If you are the wrong person to discuss Joseph Smith with, then you shouldn’t try and defend the Mormon Church, or discuss it, as he was the founder, who headed up this cult-
Good Grief!!! I’m in Rhode Island…..#48. Boy, is THAT depressing….. BAAAAAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
ok, now where were we? Oh yes, the debate on whether Mormonism is a cult, sect or whathaveyou.
I found this little excerpt from the website for Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. www.carm.org
These are Mormon beliefs
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, known as the Mormons, teaches that God the father used to be a man on another planet, that he became a God by following the laws and ordinances of that God on that planet and came to this world with his wife (she became a goddess), and that they produce a spirit offspring in heaven. These spirit offspring, which includes Jesus, the devil, and you and me, are all brothers and sisters born in the preexistence. The preexistence spirits come down and inhabit babies at the time of birth and their memories of the preexistence are lost at the time. Furthermore, faithful Mormons, who pay a full 10% tithe of their income to the Mormon church and go through a Mormon temples, have the potential of becoming gods of their own planets and are then able to start the procedure over again.
Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers.
Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)
Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans…” (D&C 130:22).
God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them,” (DC 132:20).
God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
“And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)
God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.
Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)
Jesus
“Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
“Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh …” (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).
Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)
Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus “in the morning of pre-existence,” (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Salvation
“One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus’ plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to “deny men their agency and to dethrone god.” (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
Jesus’ sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
“The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
“As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements — ‘obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.’” (Articles of Faith p. 79).
“This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts” (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
“We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do,” (2 Nephi 25:23).
Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. “That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man.” (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
Well, there ya have it. Now it’s your turn to make up your mind.
Have a nice day!
Justus331, I’m sure that now that you’ve moved back to Rhode Island, the suicide rate will go down! Get out there and lift them up and make them laugh.
So, I read through the thread since I posted last, and I STILL don’t know the Bible reference where the 54 angels are named. I knew about the references in Job, but not those 54 angels. Where are they in the Bible?
I also don’t know why Theo referenced John and Christ’s ascension. That has yet to be explained by him.
I also read Theo’s “defense” of Mormonism in that he is still trying to tell us that Christians and Mormons believe the same thing about Christ is and who Satan/Lucifer is. We don’t. It seems to me that Theo does not want to deal with the god from another planet business and god’s spirit wife. (I’m not capitalizing God here because I don’t think God is the same for the Mormons. I don’t believe in a god who was a man and comes from another planet.)
Justus331’s lengthy post #95 certainly clinches it for me. I stand by my original post that Mormonism has distorted aspects of Christianity in it, but it is a distinct religion. Mormonism is not Christianity, nor is it an offshoot of Christianity. They have the right to believe what they want to believe, certainly in this country, however.
Victoria does, indeed, feel strongly on this issue. I agree with her. If, as Christians, we believe that Jesus Christ is the Way — that there is NO other way — and I do — then Islam and Mormonism are both attempts to distort Christianity in such a way as to “lure” people away from the Truth, or “change” the Truth, and in their distortions, they are “anti-Christ.”
Any thoughts?
Cheryl D.,
Theo referenced John 20:17 not to make a point about the ascension but about Jesus referring to his disciples as his brothers.
THEO - “I am sure Joseph Smith was not a villain”
Joseph Smith ordered an attack on a newspaper - The Nauvoo Expositor - for speaking out against Mormonism in 1844. The newspaper offices were destroyed in a fire. He was arrested along with his brother. Guns for the brothers were smuggled into the jail. During a mob attack on the jail, Joseph shot and killed two men before he was shot and killed himself. This was not the first time he was arrested. Not a villain? You decide.
I agree that Mormonism is different enough from Protestantism and Catholicism that it can be considered a different religion.
My main point was that Christians believe that Angels are the “sons of god” and therefore there is a familial relationship between God, Jesus, and angels.
NJ Lawyer,
There are no 54 Angels references. I was referencing post #54 about angels. Sorry for that I confused you and Victoria. I thought it was clear and even Pauline tried to help clarify it.
In any case, it is clear that “sons of God” is used as a term for angels. Let’s not waste time on a proven point.
Victoria,
I am not here to defend mormonism. I find the mormons to be intelligent, law-abiding and charitable citizens.
I am sorry that you have dedicated so much of your life to studying cults. I find this to be a waste of time. Especially since much of the information that you gather is twisted and slanted against people of various religions in order to increase distrust of them. If you really want to learn about mormons or jehovah’s witnesses or buddhists or muslims then I suggest that you talk to them.
Your twisted reports of what they believe are hardly factual. You enjoy cherry-picking phrases and comments and using them in a different context. Members of these religions find your efforts to be dishonest and deceiving.
I would agree with them. If I want to find out what the mormons believe, I will ask the mormons. I advise others to do the same.
Theo, many of the topics concerning Mormons (especially in my post # were written by former Mormons. I have no disagreement that they are law-abiding folks, who want a good life. However, they engage in poor, and unfounded doctrine. Paul even encouraged Timothy in his letter to seek good doctrine, which saves men’s souls. Look, there are 2 ways to look at a piece of information…….it’s either right, or it’s wrong. Our only standard should be the Holy Bible, which is perfect in all ways. If the Latter Day Saints say their Book of Mormon is above the Bible, then they are seriously dillusional in their quest for theology.
Theo - 100
Theo, you don’t like the study of cults? So you copy paste all this stuff from the internet instead of taking the time to study it…. Then you chastise me for taking the time to study the cults which are against the LORD Jesus so that I can share what I have learned to WARN others. It’s not a waste of time Theo, its never a waste of time to know WHAT ONES TALKING ABOUT. What is a waste of time is talking about something you don’t know about, and trying to fool others, by lack of knowledge.
I have talked to many people who are in CULTS, you PRESUME to know my background when you haven’t a clue. The information I have given is true, and factual.
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
When we see those who have gone after a false Gospel, we are to reprove, rebuke, exhort them with longsuffering, and give them the doctrine that is in the Word of God, not a made up cult-doctrine which they have heard. The cults go door to door trying to spread a religion which is contrary to God’s Word. Read the passage below from 2 Timothy, this is a clear example of the cults.
We all know that the cults go door to door. Look at the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons. There are others who do the same thing.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
When people haven’t studied God’s Word, they are easy prey for those who would lead them astray, they do have “itching ears”
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Many have turned from the truth of God’s Word to another Gospel, to a variety of cults.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 2 Timothy 4
Victoria,
Do you find it acceptable to twist the truth if it furthers the work of God?
Justus,
Our only standard should be truth. The Bible was written by men who were seeking truth. It is neither perfect nor complete.
Every religion is entitled to its own beliefs. If the mormons believe the Book of Mormon to be better than the Bible that is their right. Muslims have a similar right.
Theology is not judged by the Bible. Theology is judged by the standard of truth. Scientists have an equal opportunity to discover truth. Certainly God is the fastest route to truth but since God’s interaction with mankind is limited, that truth is often difficult to interpret.
The Bible’s metaphors are often misinterpreted and misconstrued by man. For example, Great Deluge, Creation, Tower of Babel, Moses’ Exodus, etc. are neither historically nor literally accurate.
#103: Our only standard should be truth. The Bible was written by men who were seeking truth. It is neither perfect nor complete.
But that’s not the truth. The Bible was written because the Christian religion, which had become mainstream around the Mediterranean and the Middle East, was beginning to fracture. People were beginning to go their own way. Other religions had Bibles, so the leaders of the church got together to create a “manual” for their religion. This would standardize worship practices as well as define the type of God they want to believe in. You know, kindly, wrathful, angry, etc.
How do you believe the Bible was written?
Theo,
When you go to a Mormon website you are going to hear what THEY WANT YOU TO KNOW. Unless you study this cult for yourself, you won’t know the truth. YES it takes TIME to do this, but unless you are willing to devote time to STUDY, you won’t have educated yourself about the LDS Church.
This is the doctrine which you will be taught by those who come to your door or a Mormon/LDS website, it is their “Official Doctrine”
This is the book which every Mormon owns, and is made available to anyone.
The books which contain the doctrine of the Mormon Church are not readily available, those are the doctrines which someone learns AFTER they are indoctrinated, and become members. Such as:
“God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children” Mormon Doctrine p. 516
“God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus”
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115
“The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible,”
History of the Church, 4:461
Go buy the books Theo, you can buy them over the internet, USED.
Theo, everyone has a right to worship any way they choose.
It is every man/woman’s right to know the religion of someone who would run our country, and sit in the Oval Office. That is OUR right, just as FREEDOM of religion is EVERYONE’s RIGHT!
Every person who votes for a President has every right to know who that person is, what they believe in as a religion. Every person has a right to research a religion and know everything about it so as to make an EDUCATED descision when casting thier vote for the President of the United States.
There should be NO MYSTERY as to what the religion is of any Presidential candidate!
No thanks, not going to waste my time searching old used books for unofficial doctrines of the various religions.
I would rather spend my time searching for truth than digging for untaught theories.
I happen to know that Mormons don’t teach that God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus. You have pushed that lie in past blogs. Mormons don’t believe this. They don’t teach this. They never did. They believe Jesus was born of a virgin. So do Muslims. So do Jehovah’s Witnesses. So do Seventh Day Adventists.
This is another twisted deception that you like to spin. You need to drop this one.
Rdean,
Yes, I believe that the writers of the Bible sincerely believed what they wrote.
Peter wrote,
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
I believe he is being honest.
Acts 5
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.
36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
Victoria,
Leave Joseph Smith and the mormons alone. If it is the work of men, it will come to nought.
OK, I’ll vote for Obama.
He’s a Christian.
So is McCain.
So is Thompson.
So is Giuliani.
So is Hillary Clinton.
So is Edwards.
So is Paul.
Not that it matters. Huckabee is using religion as a political tool. I find that offensive. Jesus refused to get involved in politics. Why is Huckabee dragging Him into it?
Theo - 107
YOU WRITE……“I happen to know that Mormons don’t teach that God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus. You have pushed that lie in past blogs. Mormons don’t believe this. They don’t teach this. They never did. They believe Jesus was born of a virgin.”
Are you a Mormon Theo?
If you researched the books, you would then know the truth. Instead you denounce what I have posted, and others, in defense of something you haven’t checked out.
My beliefs are a mix of Science, Christianity, and Buddhism. I have studied most religions to some degree.
You seem to have wasted alot of time researching incorrect information. If you were a scientist, you would probably still believe that the sun revolves around the earth.
I found this response to your statement on a mormon website. Most anti-mormon websites carry your incorrect belief.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/virgin_mary.htm
The critics would offer these types of statements as evidence that Latter-day Saints believe that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was born. They falsely say that descriptive terms like “normal and natural course of events” must mean normal sexual relations as we understand them. While this might be a possible interpretation if no other information existed on this subject, the critics conveniently ignore all other information that proves their interpretation of these types of statements to be incorrect, such as:
“Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father. Mary, his mother, “was carried away in the Spirit” (1 Ne. 11:13-21), was “overshadowed” by the Holy Ghost, and the conception which took place “by the power of the Holy Ghost” resulted in the bringing forth of the literal and personal Son of God the Father. (Alma 7:10; 2 Ne. 17:14; Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-38.) Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father. (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 18-20.) Modernistic teachings denying the virgin birth are utterly and completely apostate and false. (Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.822, emphasis added)
“He was the Only Begotten Son of our Heavenly Father in the flesh—the only child whose mortal body was begotten by our Heavenly Father. His mortal mother, Mary, was called a virgin, both before and after she gave birth. (See 1 Nephi 11:20.)” (”Joy in Christ,” Ensign 16 [March 1986]: 3-4., emphasis added) (See President Benson’s Teachings About Christ)
It is worth noting that many of these clarifying statements appear in the exact same literature as the other statements quoted above. Therefore, the critics were aware of them and purposely chose to ignore them. I will leave it to the reader’s judgment as to why our enemies might do such a thing.
111-Go, Theo, Go!! It will come to naught!
Don’t worry Victoria. Just because I defend mormons against your lies doesn’t mean I agree with them.
I have studied too much genetics, archeology, history, and anthropology do put faith in their theology.
I know better than to attack another’s beliefs and spread lies about their religion.
Should I sum up what we have learned?
1. Angels are named the “sons of God”
2. Mormons in Utah commit suicide less than non-mormons
3. Mormons do not believe that God had sexual relations with Mary.
4. Car accidents are the leading cause of deaths among teens and 1/3 of these are alcohol related
5. The mormon church believes that Jesus, the angels (including Satan), and all mankind are offspring of God. A press release stated that they do not believe that Jesus and Satan are literal brothers since Jesus is the only begotten of the Father.
6. Victoria enjoys purchasing used books that teach unused doctrines of minor religions in order to spread incorrect ideas.
Theo 111
YOU POST……..“My beliefs are a mix of Science, Christianity, and Buddhism. I have studied most religions to some degree.”
This does not surprise me. It’s a mix alright, and it shows.
It’s an all paths lead to God belief. A ‘religious milk shake’?
.
Reg 112
Yep, you’re right behind him.
as if you thought we could see through it from the beginning!
REG, you are as transparent as they come!
THEO,
5 - They say Jesus and Satan are not “literal” brothers because they are not brothers in the flesh. They say Jesus is the only begotten of the Father because they believe he was the only begotten in the flesh by the Father through Mary. They only tell you as much as they need to for it to sound Christian because they know you won’t look further into it. Multiple Mormon sources declare that Jesus and Satan were spirit-brothers and that all of us were once spirit children of God - who was once human on another planet. I studied this in seminary using Mormon documents not used documents of unused doctrines. I even interviewed Mormon missionaries as a class project. Have you ever talked to someone who was a Mormon and then left the church?
At least I sleep at night.
REG,
That’s good, I’m glad you sleep at night, so do I.
Gravatar,
I have an uncle who was a mormon once. He left the mormon church and joined buddhism.
I know many christians who became mormon. I have 3 friends from high school that became mormon. Their lives are much better now so I support them in their decision. They have their reasons I suppose.
You are probably right about the brothers in the flesh vs brothers in spirit.
Muslims and Jews could easily say that Jesus is the brother of Satan as well since God is father to both Jesus and Satan.
New Quote from Huckabee:
Regarding the confederate flag.
“You don’t like people from outside the state coming in and telling you what to do with your flag,” Huckabee told supporters in Myrtle Beach, S.C. “In fact, if somebody came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we’d tell ‘em what to do with the pole, that’s what we’d do.”
Yes, Pastor Huckabee what exactly would you tell them to do with the pole?
Theo, I was wondering in my post #101 if the Mormons were dillusional, but after reading your response to me, I’m convinced they ain’t the only ones. Hmmmm, where do I begin?
you wrote: Our only standard should be truth. The Bible was written by men who were seeking truth. It is neither perfect nor complete.
Oh? prove it. You’ve obviously not read Holy Scripture cover to cover, if you’re going to make that claim. Yes, the standard is truth, but where does one look if not the Bible? Holy men were moved by the Holy Spirit as they wrote the Bible. Think of the secretary taking dictation from the boss. same principle, only alot more involved. Yes, Theo, I will agree that most of Holy Scripture is read and believed on by faith. That’s why it takes faith in God and His word to be a christian.
You wrote that theology is not judged by the Bible. SAY WHAT? Theology is the study of God. The Bible is God’s Word. What we understand about comes from the Bible!
So Professor Theo…..tell the class how in the deep blue sea are the HISTORICAL FACTS of The Flood, Noah’s ark and creation not literallt accurate??
The burden of proof is now in your hands…..
“The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible”History of the Church 4:461
The Bible is the Word of God, the book of Mormon is not!
“God the Father had a Father, Joseph Smith, History of the Church” vol. 6, p. 476;
“God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children” Mormon Doctrine p. 516
“God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115
I have read the New Testament six times. I have read the Old Testament twice. I have studied them for more than 20 years including theology courses.
What would you like me to prove? There was no great deluge 4000 years ago. Where should I start? History, archeology, linguistics, paleobotany, geography, genetics, architecture, anthropology, sociology, chemistry, engineering, anatomy, zoology, astronomy, or physics.
It is funny that you see others as delusional.
I am not the one who is walking around with his eyes shut to every shred of evidence that has been found over the past 4 centuries.
The Bible is great. But you must understand its limits. Science is progressing at an ever increasing rate. If you hold too tightly to incorrect assumptions, you’ll be left behind. Your children and grandchildren will feel betrayed if you teach them something at home that they discover to be false in reality.
Children love dinosaurs. Don’t you think they’ll ask how the dinosaurs survived the flood? Mankind’s evolution is being discovered gradually. Medicine is using genetics to cure diseases.
The same genetics that reveals mankind’s history is rewriting his future.
Victoria,
You used those same quotes in 105.
Are you OK. Did you forget your medicine?
I worry about your sanity. It seems to be breaking.
I repeated them just for you Theo.
As far as medication goes, - - rather revealing that you turn to those childish ‘outbursts’ when you don’t like what’s posted.
Take care!
Childish outbursts?
You repeated the exact same quotes 6 hours apart. I figured you must have forgot or were losing your mind.
I had already shown you that at least one of those quotes was factually wrong. You chose to repeat the lie. Says something about your level of honesty and integrity.
I thought Jesus was the only begotten of the Father.
Am I incorrect? Is He the only begotten of the Holy Ghost?
Seems Victoria doesn’t know her Bible as well as she thinks she does.
John 1:14
…and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
and of course…
John 3:16
Show me a verse that says Jesus was “begotten by the Holy Ghost”.
I actually laugh that I am defending Brigham Young. I just find your hatred of mormons and willingness to stretch the truth to be quite comical.
I also don’t think you understand the Bible all that well.
I’ll bet many mormons understand the Bible better than you do. They all serve 2 year missions. They study religion in seminaries throughout high school and college. Mormons attend church with far greater regularity than evangelicals.
You have memorized anti-mormon propaganda but I don’t think you understand christianity itself. If you did, you would let go of this quest to defeat mormonism and start living a more uplifting life. Your fanatical desire to degrade other religions is certainly not productive in your own life.
132-
Thank you!
THEO,
Victoria is not quoting memorized anti-mormon propaganda. She is quoting their own documents and prophets. They teach that Jesus was begotten of the Father the same way that our children are begotten. And that Mary was a virgin because the Father was immortal so she had not known a mortal man. They even say that Mary was the wife of the Father for a time so that the conception would not be unlawful. I’m not bothering to quote each Mormon source because it would take up too much space but these are the teachings of their prophets.
Hello Theo
For a man who’s read the Bible, you surely lack the faith necessary to know that the Flood did happen. Take a look at the Grand Canyon, one of America’s greatest national treasures. Have you noticed all the pretty colored rocks in the wals? They surely are impressive looking. Now take a closer look at the wall structure. They surely look jagged and rough. I reckon if evolution were true, the walls would be smooth and slick. The pretty colors in the walla would not be there. You see, Sir, they are there because of the great Flood. The reason being is that what happened cause a “calamity” in the earth, depositing the different minerals to settle in places that give us those real wonders to view. And the calamity caused the rocks to shred and become the jagged features we wonder about. That’s only one instance, though there are many more. that I can’t think of this early on a Saturday morning…….
Justus,
You don’t know what your talking about. Don’t embarass yourself further. Go study geology.
Gravatar and Victoria,
Let the mormons decide their own doctrine. What if I started making web sites quoting evangelical leaders and their teachings that did not agree with your own philosophy. What if I quoted unused Bible verses and said that this is what Christians believe. Would you like that? What if I made so many web sites that it was difficult to find the real truth about your beliefs? This is what mormons are experiencing.
Mormons do not believe Jesus and Satan are brothers. The mormon church issued a press release to that effect.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/answering-media-questions-about-jesus-and-satan
Mormons do not believe that God had sexual relations with Mary. She was a virgin at Jesus’ birth. Here is the mormon press release.
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/search?&query=virgin%20mary&bucket=AllNewsroomContent&maxResults=10
I am not sure about some of the other things that you quoted and tell you the truth, it does not matter to me. I realize that you think you are doing God’s work by attacking cults. In fact, spreading lies is not a service to God. It is serving the father of lies.
There is one thing that bothers me, Theo. You tell Victoria: “I am sorry that you have dedicated so much of your life to studying cults. I find this to be a waste of time.” Why do you care what she likes to study? So, it’s a waste of time to YOU! In the immortal words of Jesus Christ: “what’s that to you?”
In response to your post at 131, Theo, please see Matthew 1:18. My NKJV reads:
“…. Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.”
Maybe you should be searching the old books.
NJLawyer,
My Bible says the same thing. It does not say that Jesus was “begotten by the Holy Ghost”
My point exactly.
In Victoria’s quote (which may or may not be accurate) Brigham Young did not say that “Jesus was not conceived of the Holy Ghost.” He said “Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost”.
Technically that is accurate. Jesus was begotten of the father.
To quote Athanasius, “begetting is significant of a Son.” In the Bible, begotten is always used in connection between father and son. It is not used in connection between the Holy Spirit and Jesus or the Holy Spirit and us.
There is a difference between conceived and begotten.
Theo, my quote used neither the word “conceived” nor “begotten” — yet Mary was still pregnant.
You parse words worse than a lawyer.
Keep reading in the NKJV, verse 20: “… for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.”
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son….” I trust I need not give a citation.
So, in the Bible, Jesus was conceived and begotten by God, okay?
And don’t forget the Trinity either.
Words have very specific meanings. As a lawyer you should realize this.
“Begotten” is reserved for the Father. Brigham Young used it correctly.
This was a very strong point in the Ecumenical Councils used to decide the nature of God.
I find your conclusion humorous.
“So, in the Bible, Jesus was conceived and begotten by God, okay?”
Do you handle law cases like this?
So, in the video, the defendant was seen interacting with the victim, okay? Let’s not be more specific than this because it is just parsing words.
THEO,
The problem is Mormons believe that what their prophets say and write are revelations from God - kind of like the Pope when he writes or speaks excathedra - as if they are scripture. Christians do not believe that their evangelical leaders are speaking direct revelation from God - they could be wrong. So my quotes from their prophets are their official teachings of the church. They realize the problems and contradictions of their past teachings so they are issuing press releases to try to “fix” the problem. Also, I thought you already conceded my point that the Mormons teach that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers not brothers in the flesh. It is a direct example of them attempting to hide their own teachings. And I don’t appreciate being told that I’m spreading lies and the implication that I’m serving Satan is incredibly insulting when everything I have said comes directly from their own documents.
Brigham Young also said: “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call SCRIPTURE (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p.95).
Mormon A.F. McDonald commented: “if the President makes a statement it is not our prerogative to dispute it…when I first heard the doctrine of Adam being our Father and God, I was favorably impressed—enjoyed and hailed it as a new Revelation” (Minutes of the School of Prophets, Provo, UT, 1868-1871, p.38-39).
President Heber C. Kimball said: “But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong” (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.32).
Theo, I thought you said you read that there Bible?
Go to the BEGINNING. Read Genesis 5. Lot of begattin’ goin’ on there, son.
Here is a mormon news release:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=970af549db852110VgnVCM100000176f620aRCRD&vgnextchannel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD
* Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.
* Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.
Based on the scriptures, Joseph Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
* Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day. This follows the biblical pattern (Amos 3:7), in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon B. Hinckley has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
* Latter-day Saints place heavy emphasis on the application of their faith in daily life. For example, the active participation of Latter-day Saints in their community and worldwide humanitarian programs reflects concern for other people. As Jesus Christ declared, “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
* Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together.
* Those writing or commenting on Latter-day Saint doctrine also need to understand that certain words in the Mormon vocabulary have slightly different meanings and connotations than those same words have in other religions. For example, Latter-day Saints generally view being born again as a process of conversion, whereas many other Christian denominations often view it as a conversion that happens in one defining moment. Sometimes what some may consider an argument or dispute over doctrine is really a misunderstanding of simple differences in terminology.
143,
Yes, and they are all father-son relationships.
Don’t call me son. You did not beget me.
God coming from another planet isn’t “really a misunderstanding of simple differences in terminology.”
(You’ll find more begetting in Gospels, too. See Matthew, Chapter 1.)
146
And they are all father-son relationships. This is getting tedious.
I am not going to defend all mormon beliefs. I don’t have enough understanding about their church to do that neither would I wish to.
I do know that it is dishonest to spread lies about another religion. If they declare openly that they do not believe something, we should respect that. We should not build web sites declaring that they secretly believe something not taught in their churches and then twist quotes from mormon leaders that are outdated or misrepresentative of their official doctrine.
It would be equally wrong for mormons to use quotes from Luther, Calvin, or Wycliffe as a means of establishing official evangelical doctrine.
Theo, I never said it wasn’t about father-son relationships. Jesus was conceived/begotten by the Father/Holy Spirit. That didn’t happen with me or you, and if the Mormons make any distinctions regarding Christ that he wasn’t conceived by the Holy Ghost and isn’t the only begotten Son of God, they differ from Christianity. If that difference exists, we should be able to post that. I am not advocating that anyone lie about the Mormons, but there are enough differences — and that God was a man and came from a different planet are big differences — that I’m argue with you over “conceive” and “begotten” and ignore the big elephant in the room either. Odd how the Mormons don’t like to talk about that Book of Mormon, something you ignore in its entirety, too.
You made a crack about how I would approach a jury, so I thought you had a sense of humor. Evidently not. So, I won’t tease you and call you son. A law clerk (whose mother constantly called him at work) once told me he was glad I wasn’t his mother. I told him I was glad about that, too, because if I were, I’d have to change my views on abortion. He was one lazy critter, and this “auntie” wouldn’t pick up where mama left off.
NJLawyer,
You can call me son if you are at least 20 years older than me (in your mid 50’s)
I was trying to be funny by using a beget joke. Sorry if it fell flat.
You can tease me. I don’t mind.
Victoria,
Sorry, I don’t know who Orson Pratt is. Apparently, the mormon church does not consider his words to be official doctrine.
Orson Pratt’s family is related to Mitt Romney’s family.
152, “Orson Pratt’s family is related to Mitt Romney’s family.”
So is Noah.
Assess Mitt Romney by his own words and actions. If that means you won’t for him, fine. But let’s be fair-minded.
Orson Pratt was one of the 12 elders of the Mormon Church.
I’m talking about a cult. Those who belong to it, and the one who wants to run our country. It has nothing to do with Noah, you could make the point that every single person would be a descendent of Noah, ….. Joel that encompasses everyone! No matter what they believe or what they represent!
VICTORIA wrote, “…you could make the point that every single person would be a descendent of Noah.”
Well, that was my point, my friend.
VICTORIA, I respect your concerns about the Mormon church and I share many or all of them. But I have many points of respect for Mormons too. When I see the flaws, I try not to be blind to the assets and qualities. But I could never ever be a Mormon.
But being an American is something I do share with Mitt Romney and I believe he is a fine American. I was deeply moved by his recent speech on freedom & faith in America. I have waited a long time for someone to say the things he did so well.
I respect Mitt Romney’s family values and I think they are not just for politics in his life. He lives by them. I think he will be honest too. And he is highly intelligent. He is competent and well tested. I can vote for him based on his high standing in my mind as a fellow American, not as a Mormon.
Joel
I don’t respect the beliefs of a cult. The point being, if a man believes that Satan, the devil is the brother of Jesus Christ, he has the wrong Jesus. - - I know that’s a strong statement, but the LORD comes first, if a man isn’t able to follow the true LORD, then I don’t want him in the Oval Office. I certainly don’t want to follow him. What are values, if you don’t value who JESUS truly is, and HE’s not the brother of Satan. Is there a more important value than Jesus?
Yes I know many Presidents have not been strong Christians, maybe they haven’t believed much at all, but to my knowledge none of them were in a cult. President Eisenhower’s family were members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses when Eisenhower was a child. He left that cult when he was about 15 years old.
Yes there are men who have not lived up to their marriage vows, and other sins, but they inherently know they are wrong. I hope they have asked GOD to forgive them.
To vote for Romney is to agree with him that his values, are correct, I cannot do that according to what I know to be true and righteous. Many people have had to make decisions which aren’t easy, which bring us to our knees, this is one of them. I as a Believer am called to follow Christ, not a man who follows a christ whom he believes is Satan’s brother, it’s just that simple Joel.
We must trust GOD, that HE will send another man who we can vote for in good conscience. If we pray and seek GOD’S Will, He will direct our paths. Maybe we will just have to ride this out if Romney is the front runner, letting the DEM’S win.
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. Proverbs 3
Ok. To whomever posted the really long URL above?
www.TinyUrl.com
Please use it from now on. You’ve tweaked up the entire thread with that long URL.
Tell you what.
I’m going to make a point of it. See the bogus link below? Yeah….
Scroll baby, scroll…
www.;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlk;aldkjf;lkdj;lakjd;lkjad;flkjdflkjd;flka;dfk;adlkf;asdkf;laksdf;laksdjf;laksdjf;lkasjdf;lkajdf;lkaj;dlfkja;djkf;adkfj;laskdf;ladkjf;laskdjf;lkasdf;lakjsdf;lakjd;flkajd;lfkajd;lfkja;dlfkja;ldsfj;alsdkjf;lasjdf;laskdjf;laksdjf;laksjdf;lkajsdf;lkajsd;flkjasd;lfkjas;ldfkja;lskdjf;lakdjf;lakjdf;lkasjd;lkasjdf;lakjsd;flkjads;lfkjasdfkja;sldkjfas;ldkjf;asldkjf;laskjf;lasdjf;laskfj;laskdjl.com
I posted my post single space, the whole thing is double spaced, not to mention LONG. What a mess!
Sorry Victoria.
Being a perfectionist has its drawbacks.
One could always petition the moderators to edit the posts….
This wasn’t your fault MIM.
Cheer up you didn’t do it,
you just added a FEW extra
inches to the foot and half
it had been before you played
with it …..
MIM
we
could
always
post
one
word
at
a
time.
For
those
who
post
two
foot
posts
this
might
be
a
great
idea.
Well maybe that’s one way to end an argument…
McCain wins South Carolina - 33% …..
Huckabee - 30%
Thompson - 15%
Romney - 14%
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Romeny’s last!
Victoria wrote; “I don’t respect the beliefs of a cult.”
Neither do I and I never said so above. But I can respect human beings, fellow Americans, who are in a cult who say and do things that clearly merit our respect. I think Romney can do the president’s job responsibly and competently. But he couldn’t even join the church where I serve unless he became a Christian.
Victoria wrote; “If a man isn’t able to follow the true LORD, then I don’t want him in the Oval Office.”
Could you have voted for Thomas Jefferson? He may not have followed Jesus as I think one should (and many other Presidents have not either) and he did not harm our nation. Our Constitution does not call for a “religious test” and I agree with that. Nor does the Bible for the act of voting.
There is no other value more important than Jesus, but Jesus is not running for President, Victoria, and my true citizenship is in heaven. My vote in 2008 will only have temporal effect, and I think a vote for Romney will have a temporal effect to the good.
You may be quite wrong, Victoria, to say that the men who have not lived up to their marriage vows “inherently know they are wrong.” I take serious issue with that presumption.
As a Believer, Victoria, you are called to follow Christ, not Romeny, Huckabee, Clinton, Thompson, Obama, Giuliani, or whomever gets elected. That is not a substantive reason to refuse to vote for any of them.
Until God does send another man, a better choice, I love my country enough to deal with the choices we have and to do so in full good conscience too.
I love my country too much to ride this out and let the Dems win. It’s a matter of gratitude to her for all the blessings I enjoy as a US citizen–none of which compare to the blessings prepared for us in heaven where there will be no elections.
Joel,
I don’t agree with you. We will need to agree to disagree, I won’t vote for
Romney. There are many others who feel the same way I do. I won’t
compromise my beliefs, just to have a Republican in the White House.
There have been many men who have run for the office of President and
won, those who are both Republican and Democrats, but never a cult
member.
I respect each mans right to believe what he wishes, but that doesn’t
mean I respect what they choose, this makes the difference. It’s Romney’s
choice to be a member of a cult, its my choice to vote for someone who
isn’t.
I love the United States, but I love my LORD and Savior more.
I wouldn’t vote for a man who believed in ’same sex marriage’ nor
would I vote for a man who believed in abortion. But more importantly
I won’t vote for anyone who is a member of a cult!
17. Now I beseech you, brethren, MARK them which cause DIVISIONS
and offences contrary to the DOCTRINE which ye have LEARNED; and
AVOID them
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly;
and by GOOD WORDS and FAIR SPEECHES DECEIVE the hearts of the simple
Romans 16
Theo, my son, I am 55.
Victoria, I can read that you are still exercised over Mormonism, but I think you have reached a good compromise when you tell Joel Mark that you will agree to disagree. You know I agree with you that Mormonism is not Christianity, and I would be lying if I said there are not a lot of beliefs there that are “strange” to this Christian, but Mr. Romney is not trying to cause a “division” in the country. I haven’t heard him preach anything. He merely wants to practice his own faith, and I can’t fault him for that. You may certainly decide about him based on the one issue of his religion. I have certainly said that at this point in time, I would have trouble voting for a Muslim, so I understand your concern.
I just finished watching a tape of Romney on FoxNews this morning. He has run businesses, and that’s in his favor for me. He’s not a socialist!
In another thread, I asked Mr_Meaner — who is pro Romney — to help me make up my mind between Romney and McCain by Feb. 5 when I have to vote. I know that Joel Mark also favors Romney, and I’m sure he’ll speak up and help me, too.
All I can say is that in this election, Romney is not seeking to serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but is seeking to serve the nation as president — something Jesus would never do. We hear Dems say isn’t it wonderful that we are making history having a woman and a black man running. Perhaps it is time for Republicans to say that we are making history by having a Mormon run.
I urge everyone to remember that there is no religious test in our Constitution. Romney is running for a secular position in our society. Vote your conscience.
Victoria,
I have not tried to suggest how you should vote or not, and I respect your right to vote as you please. I have just tried to explain my approach to that precious right. Like you, I won’t compromise my beliefs either, not one bit! But I probably will vote for Romney.
I’ll try again:
Victoria,
I have not tried to suggest how you should vote
or not, and I respect your right to vote as you
please. I have just tried to explain my approach
to that precious right. Like you, I won’t
compromise my beliefs either, not one bit!
But I probably will vote for Romney.
Join The Conversation
NJLAWYER,
Actually, Joseph Smith ran for president
in 1844 so we are not making history.
SavedByGrace: I didn’t know that! Now I gotta come up with something else! (Now, please go help me out on Whirled Views 1.19 with Jon Rowe’s question about eternal damnation.)
The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1mFdO1wB08&feature=related
Mormons do not believe in the same Gospel as the Gospel of Jesus Christ
in the Bible.
Please watch this video, its very important!
George Romney and Mitt Romeny, through their lifetimes,
have both shown that they can govern effectively and responsibly
with full respect for the freedom of faith we all share in the USA
and without imposing their Mormonism on anyone in any way by virtue of
their public office.
I can respect that while still disagreeing
strongly with the Mormon faith and its tenets. But I can respect their freedom in the USA to
practice their faith even if I do not fully
respect the origins of that faith. I can also
respect responsible and comptent governing.
As a Church-of-Christ (CoC) youth, I visited the Church-of-Christ Latter Day Saints and was shocked at certain idiosyncratic similarities, since Mormonism had been thoroughly demonized by CoC. This induced a powerful questioning of my own religious heritage. The similarities with CoC are probably more pronounced than for other denominations, since LDS began with converted CoC pillars like Sidney Rigdon.
Christianity/Mormonism are both religious cults. Christianity was once a Jewish “sect” but evolved into a separate “cult” with help from Greek influences.
p.s. Why does this thread not wrap text on my browser? (all the others do)
#176
Spinoza,
Because of the long url’s posted in comments on this thread. #136 and #144 had some longish ones, then MIM posted a really long bogus url in #157 to demonstrate what it does to the thread.
What kind of a person would you be? THAT is the real question. The debate over what kind of person would you vote for falls FAR short of what concerns God.
“I will sing of lovingkindness and justice: unto thee, O Jehovah, will I sing praises. I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way: Oh when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart. I will set no base thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside: it shall not cleave unto me. a perverse heart shall depart from me: I will know no evil thing. Whoso privily slandereth his neighbor, him will I destroy.
Him that hath a high look and a proud heart will I not suffer. Mine eyes shall be upon the faithful of the land, that they may dwell with me. He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: He that speaketh falsehood shall not be established before mine eyes. Morning by morning will I destroy all the wicked of the land; To cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of Jehovah.”
The Beauty of the Bridled Tongue
If any man thinketh himself to be religious while he bridleth not his tongue but decieveth his heart,, this man’s religion is in vain.
An evangelical Christian, I will vote for Huckabee. He is who I believe will make decisions more consistent with my moral, social, ethical, and political values.
My son joined the Army Reserve two weeks ago.
He will serve in active duty some day; it has
been his passionate goal for six years.
Does this make me any more qualified to judge
whether the Iraq front of the War on Terror is
justified, wise or expedient? I do not understand
why someone thinks a presidential candidate must have a child serving in the armed forces before that candidate’s opinion on the War on Terror would be respected.
The Army recruiter was shocked that my husband and I are not against the War. We support our son joining the Army because we support President Bush’s decision to protect our country from radical Islamofascism. The War on Terror is a necessary task, one which we, too (and most Republicans) wish to end, but in victory, not denial to our peril.