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Vaccinate, or else
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In a move many might consider extreme, four Belgian parents received five-month prison sentences and hefty fines for failing to vaccinate their children against polio. The parents can still avoid prison time if they agree to have their children vaccinated by an unspecified deadline, but otherwise Belgian officials are maintaining a hard line.
“Nobody has the right to unfettered liberty, and people do not have a right to endanger their kids,” said John Harris, a professor of bioethics at the University of Manchester.
“The parents in this case do not have any rights they can appeal to. They have obligations they are not fulfilling.”
Those are strong fighting words–what’s your reaction?
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Gloomy conservatives
Nobody has the right to unfettered power and the state has no right to endanger their citizens kids. If the parents in this case do not have any rights they can appeal to, the state has obligations they are not fulfilling.
There is a better rewrite of what Harris should have said if he wants to put “ethics” back into bioethics.
Belgium, welcome to socialism in its extreme. Oh, and welcome to the autism epidemic.
take mega doses of Vit. C for two weeks prior
other supplements, as well, to build immunity prior to vaccination
Nobody has the right to unfettered power and the state has no right to endanger their citizens kids.
Well put, Adios.
I’d only add about John Harris’s quote:
unfettered and liberty go together. What on earth is fettered liberty?
I get so tired of people pushing science onto our children. People survived before there was a polio vaccine. How many have polio now? See what I mean.
I think a little prayer goes way further than any so called vaccines or medical “cures”. Medicine is way over rated. Just leave everything in God’s hands.
If you are supposed to get polio, then that was the plan all along. It’s not right to stand in the way of the will of God with vaccines and cures.
Vaccinations are generally a wise idea, but required by law?
I’m not exactly sure how I feel about this particular case, though I do admit that it is frightening when the government has the power to decide what all must be injected into each of its citizens.
But I guess some people trust government that much.
Maybe Stubob can help, but I’ve seen no study linking any sort of vaccination to autism, Adios. Correlation does not equal causation.
That said, if Polio weren’t contagious, then I’d let the parents not vaccinate their children, for whatever reason. If the kid dies, then it is their fault. However, polio is contagious and the parents shouldn’t be allowed to foster a viral breeding ground in their children when there is a safe vaccination available.
RDEAN #4,
I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who thinks that we should “let go and let God” when it comes to medicine. Is prayer powerful? Certainly. But by no means is it a substitute for practicality.
This is not a case of conservatives having a problem with science and the vaccinations. This is a problem with government being too powerful.
If the kid dies, it may be the parent’s fault, but it’s the kid who suffers for it.
It’s a funny attitude … if you oppose abortion on the grounds that it kills a human being, it seems you should also, to be consistent, support laws that require vaccination on similar grounds. Granted many diseases we vaccinate against aren’t fatal, but they are damaging.
If there were real evidence that a particular vaccine could cause an ailment, such as autism, there might be more grounds for allowing it to be voluntary. But I tend to agree with the authorities quoted here: Parents don’t have the right to expose their children to the possibility of a crippling disease when there’s a safe, affordable, effective means to prevent it.
EYG: “Fettered liberty” is simply limits on freedom. In America, we are “free,” but not to murder, steal and rape. Our liberty lies in our right to be think, feel and believe as we choose, not to do anything we want to do without consequence.
Your question sounds telling on the surface, but in reality even the freest societies put limits on how far the liberty goes.
However, polio is contagious and the parents shouldn’t be allowed to foster a viral breeding ground in their children when there is a safe vaccination available.
Mind you, I’m not against safe, tested vaccines for contagious diseases, but if you and yours are vaccinated, why does it matter directly to you if someone else’s are not? I lean toward smaller government, so I’m not crazy about new laws.
I even agree that the unvaccinated children could be lawfully kept out of government-run schools, as long as homeschooling is an option.
” . . . parents shouldn’t be allowed to foster a viral breeding ground in their children when there is a safe vaccination available.”
“Safe” has yet to be determined (all my kids shots are up to date). And what if the state was saying parents shouldn’t be allowed to homeschool their kids (mine are in public school)? Or Parents shouldn’t be allowed to keep their children from watching “safe” TV.
I believe we should all be responsible to community health, so why weren’t the first few cases of AIDS quarentined when it was determined there was a new fatal disease out there? Because it impinged on individual liberty and the science of AIDS was far from perfect.
Correlation does not equal causation, but when you see the correlation time after time it should give one pause. Right now scientists are looking at a predisposition in the brain of kids with autism that certain ingredients in vaccines stimulate.
That takes nothing away from Jonas Salk or Rotary International for the great things they have accomplished in combating polio. But they were all about education and availability, not an “or else” mentality.
I agree with Adios Steve. The safety of vaccinations are in question right now and links to autism are suspected for some. A responsible parent would weigh the risk of getting the disease against the risk of damage from the vaccination.
I would think the risks of getting polio are almost nil these days, but the risks of product failure are rising.
Also, I don’t agree with your wording here:
“Parents don’t have the right to expose their children to the possibility of a crippling disease . . . ”
You make it sound as if the parents are forcing their children to breath into a bag full of disease or something. While it’s true that we might be exposed to polio, we might be exposed to other things like the flu, UV radiation, drunk drivers, violent crime, pesticides, etc. The point is, we can’t avoid everything that might be dangerous to us. Taken to an extreme, parents would not allow their kids outside.
#10 Adios,
According to Obama’s ‘reverend whack job’, the reason AIDS went unchecked was that the all controlling, slave mastering, government of Whitey developed AIDS specifically to introduce it into black neighborhoods to kill as many blacks as possible. That was why it went unchecked
And we wonder why so many blacks, their neighborhoods and families are basket cases all the way back to Africa. The reason is simple enough and I will tell you why. The Obamas, but not all black leaders even though it seems so, support and allow whack jobs to brainwash the weak minded among them on purpose. Sure enough, they will claim not to agree with every crazy thing the Reverends swill to their little piggies but they will defend them claiming they were driven to insanity by Whitey or some other scapegoat like ‘Hymie the Jew’- so they are really not crazy in the least - you just can’t see how sane they are due to your copious amount of evil bias, hatred and bigotry.
The Obamas of the world use the Reverends like Al Sharpton, Jessie Jackson and others to blame Whitey for everything and create an atmosphere of hopeless failure by fate - while the Obama’s shout about some future hopes and dreams - just like the Pure Martyr MLK. As real leaders they not only could but would stand up and put these evil men in their place - but they choose not to do so - on purpose.
The Obamas of the world know that they will end up being the real slave masters by default and they know that weak minded slaves, who are totally dependent on them for their pitiful existence, are the easiest to herd, keep docile and penned.
Obama is unique because he takes this to new levels and has convinced the majority of the weak minded left that the conservatives, businesses, the rich, or just plain Bush are to blame for everything but, there is some hope and dream for them too. Obama, (or Hillary - Obama Lite), is the only one to lead these little piggies to Marxist or at least Socialist Paradise where robbing the rich to give to the poor is a God given right somewhere in the constitution.
The only real hopes and dreams are the ones that Obama and Hillary have. The ones where they hope to keep the weak minded left herded, docile and penned long enough to get elected so they can fulfil their dream to be the slave master of all.
Seatbelt laws (giving one more time to regain control of the vehicle or at least not get thrown out and rolled over), helmet laws (the cost on the state for caring for a brain damaged rider is high), and other such. I lean toward mandatory on some of the shots, polio being one of them, but there ought to be a refusal clause. Some people may have bad reactions to vaccines. Isn’t polio pretty big in some countries right now, even making a comeback?
Back on subject. I suppose that I am biased because my grandmother had polio. She caught it from someone else. She wasn’t vaccinated - neither was the other person. Her father, who was blind, thought getting vaccinated was ill advised. She spent the rest of his life getting even with her father and his stupid ideas. She eventually went insane - drawn to insanity because of her hatred of the world that didn’t have her disease - the world that she blamed for giving polio to her and ruining her life.
God never answered her prayers because you are still alive and she was never miraculously cured.
Sorry, no one should go unvaccinated against polio. It is a horrible disease if you survive it. The only reason people think otherwise is because they do not see this disease around them every day killing and maiming their friends or love ones. They have little fear of getting it themselves. Their brother or sister isn’t confined to an Iron Lung in the back bedroom. The reason they can feel this way is because nearly all people in the world were vaccinated against polio.
It was not always so but there have always been those who stupidly think vaccination against polio is ill advised - just like my great grandfather who paid a heavy price for his stupidity but not nearly a great a one as my grandmother.
Llama,
I think we all recognize the severity of polio, and I know a couple survivors. But should a nation force its citizens to comply with a vaccine, and should the parents described in the original topic post actually go to jail for failing to do so?
There has been some problem with polio eradication in Nigeria, India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan and people carrying the disease from these countries have carried them to people in other countries where the disease was not endemic. Anyway, for example, in 2003 a rumor circulated among the Muslims that the vaccine was an attempt to sterilize their girls so many did not allow it, bringing a large increase in cases.
This is similar to the idea of letting some people in America “get away with not vaccinating”. It does become a problem. My question would be, did the people in the gaining countries stop vaccinating because they considered it no longer a problem or did the vaccine not work?
There are laws against dumping raw sewage into the water supply. It’s a public health issue, and it’s fundamentally the same as requiring vaccinations.
The is no evidence that any vaccine has ever caused autism. None. Forget you ever heard about it. It’s false. No connection. The connection is urban legend at best. People of a certain age remember that fluorinated water was “a communist plot.” The vaccine-autism connection is just as stupid.
Professor Harris misses most of the point regarding immunizations. The negligent parents might or might not be endangering their own children. However, unless they keep their kids in quarantine, they are endangering everyone else.
Stubob
I repeat my question from 16, if everybody else in the room is vaccinated, how are they endangered? Do the vaccines not work?
“I repeat my question from 16, if everybody else in the room is vaccinated, how are they endangered? Do the vaccines not work?”
You can’t know that everyone else in the room is vaccinated.
But you do know that if your child is not vaccinated, they are capable of contracting the disease and of spreading it to anyone who happens to not be vaccinated.
Because you don’t know whether you might be infecting other people or not, you have a responsibility to take steps ensuring that you can’t infect them, ie, a responsibility to get vaccinated.
StuBob,
Just for the record, I don’t accept the vaccinations/autism link, but we all know the FDA is pushing drugs through more quickly now (just read today that it was HIV-related), and I’m wary of new vaccines like Gardasil. I also think people should vaccinate against communicable, contagious diseases.
I’m not sure, however, I want to put parents in jail over it.
And it also protects your child from contracting the disease, which they will be more likely to be exposed to if other people think and act the same way and don’t vaccinate their children.
#10: so why weren’t the first few cases of AIDS quarentined when it was determined there was a new fatal disease out there?
Come on, you can’t be serious. Becuase it was the gays. The conservatives want them dead, so why on earth would they move a finger to help? It wasn’t until it spread into other communities that they got involved. It’s no secret. An honest one wouldn’t deny it.
#12: According to Obama’s ‘reverend whack job’
Actually, considering the Tuskegee experiments, it’s not really a stretch. If a country was going to purposely let hundreds of it’s citizens suffer a crippling disease that leads to madness over generations letting wives and children become infected, even when they had a cure, who knows how low they would go? Would you trust someone who did that to your family, or would you just say, “Oh well, things happen”? Of course, your fore fathers showed up here wearing chains. And we know they weren’t gold.
The rest of your post identifies you as a racist. Undeniably and reliably racist.
Thomas,
I was referring to his statement that the person would be endangering everybody else. No doubt they would be endangering the unvaccinated, but as in my Nigeria comment above, when they went to countries with no polio, people got it. Was that because they had foolishly decided it was no longer needed and did not vaccinate or because the vaccine was ineffective?
Mumsee– I agree with Thomas. Also, no vaccine works 100% of the time. The most important factor in mass immunizations is something called “herd immunity,” which refers to the reduced likelihood that anyone will get a disease if everyone is vaccinated, even if a particular individual doesn’t achieve immunity through the vaccine.
I also agree that jail time is a bit much.
Unfortunately, people who are vaccinated can still contract the disease. It is not 100% effective.
If you do not vaccinate your child, you are putting my child at greater risk even if I did vaccinate my child.
Governments need to be strong enough to prevent stupidity. In this case, I agree with the government. Stupid parents need to be kept separate so they don’t continue to reproduce.
Instead of jailing the parents why don’t the Belgian authorities just vaccinate the kids and be done with it?
Because this isn’t really about vaccinating children, it’s about submission to the state.
Anlir,
Because the children don’t belong to the state!
Perhaps for the same reason they ought not emasculate all homosexuals, (female circumcision for the females of course).
I had to take both polio vaccines. The old version for kindergarten. The second oral version which the whole family took when I was in 6th grade — isn’t that the same vaccine they are using today? Hasn’t it been proven not to cause side effects after all this time?
I read an article on autism this week, and one mother was talking about her child being diagnosed in the late 1960s. I’m sure it was around earlier than that because I remember a book written by a mother who had been told that it was her fault her child had this problem, that she failed to love her son, which wasn’t true, of course. Many of our current vaccines were not available in the 50s and 60s when these cases occurred, so why would you conclude that vaccines cause autism?
I know that we do have mandatory vaccinations. There was a Colorado case a few decades ago where the parents refused the DPT(?) vaccination. There was a fund for children who had adverse reactions, though it didn’t happen too often. The judges ruled that the risk to the community outweighed the individual rights.
I have to join Theo on this one. I don’t know about newer vaccines, but the polio vaccine has a long history of being safe, so it would be stupid to run the risk of crippling one’s child. I would submit that this is a good example of “fettered liberty.” You are free, just not free to infect the masses. It’s not as if we don’t have a responsibility to those around us.
NJLawyer,
So you’d put the parents in jail for disobedience, in reference to the original topic post?
Cameron,
And children are not “property” for a parent to do anything they wish with them. Society and government have an interest (limited, but vital) in protecting children. If a parent is neglecting their child’s health, the government has a right to step in to protect the child.
If a parent does right by their child the chances of interference by the government is almost nil.
Anlir,
Ah, but who determines what is “right by [the] child”?
P.S. Did you see the links I added to Saturday’s Sports thread?
And children are not “property” for a parent to do anything they wish with them.
Not anymore. When I was a kid, if a parent killed or crippled a child, all they had to say was the child was disruptive or disrespectful. I can’t remember ever hearing of parents prosecuted for any thing they did to their kids. I’m glad for now. At least some kids have a little protection. I feel espectially sorry for a girl with violent parents who gets pregnant.
Society and government have an interest (limited, but vital) in protecting children. If a parent is neglecting their child’s health, the government has a right to step in to protect the child.
Though it chafes my inner libertarian, I think this is exactly right. The state rightfully punishes all kinds of child abuse. Refusing certain vaccines may reasonably be considered abuse.
After I logged off, I realized I hadn’t addressed the “punishment” issue. I would really hate to see parents go to jail for this.
As I recall the parents in Colorado — this was a federal case — had no choice but to have their kids vaccinated. I suppose if they refused after that ruling, there could have been a contempt of court citation issued, and I would think the division of family services would have taken custody of the children and a court would have ordered them to vaccinate the children, then give them back. I can’t imagine a judge sending the parents to jail, but that probably would depend on how they behaved in court. I don’t know NJ state law on this, I don’t have kids so it has never come my way, so I don’t know if there is a fine or imprisonment attached to vaccination requirements here. I know there is a movement in the country to refuse vaccinations, but I suspect if this takes hold, we would probably ultimately see a decision similar to the 10th circuit case where the benefits outweigh the detriments, so they get vaccinated. I remember from that case that there’s a fund somewhere that is set up to deal with adverse reactions, and if something goes wrong, that’s the remedy. This, of course, would take years to litigate, all sorts of scientific evidence would be put in the record, and it would probably depend on the particular vaccine and on the rate of adverse reactions to those vaccines, but in the long run, I lean towards a decision that the kids get vaccinated, at least for most vaccines. (I would not say that for gardisil, because that does not result from a disease contracted like polio is contracted, for instance.) In our country, in a disagreement between the authorities and the parents, a judge would decide the best interests of the child.
I defer to StuBob’s statement that autism is not caused by vaccines. There is no proof. Personally, I always fall back on my belief that there’s something in the water — certainly in Jersey where we have cancer clusters, but I have no proof of that either! I’m not a doctor, so if I were a parent, I would rely on people like StuBob and a hefty amount of prayer. I think judges would, too.