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Good morning….can you believe it’s November? Where did the year go?
Today’s movie quote: “That’s what makes us tough. Rich fellas come up an’ they die an’ their kids ain’t no good, an’ they die out. But we keep a-comin’. We’re the people that live. They can’t wipe us out. They can’t lick us. And we’ll go on forever, Pa… ’cause… we’re the people.”
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Politics of fraud
Sounds like a quote from The Grapes of Wrath.
Yes, November. On this day, 43 years ago, I lost the mother I never got the chance to know better (I was 7). I am told my oldest daughter looks a lot like her, as well as my sister. My mother had leukemia and was supposed to be getting better, or so I was told. She came home about a week before she died, so I thought everything would be okay. We went to church that Sunday morning, and it was announced that she had died (they were not supposed to do that, as we were not supposed to find out until we got back to my uncle’s house where we were staying). My sister (the oldest child, then 14) cried for the rest of the service. I really did not know what to think. When my uncle picked us up from church, he knew we had heard.
I am fine now, but still find this time of year depressing. Parents: let your children know how much they mean to you and give them all a hug today.
I can believe it November.
I think everyone who has waited and waited for the temps to drop a little in Florida have felt every bit of this year.
We had to wear sleeveless on Christmas last year and I don’t think we’ve gotten to wear sweaters in a year.
It’s a little cooler today, and that’s ever so much better than the searing heat or heavy humidity.
I think we’re all hoping that the temps will drop some this year so that we can enjoy some invigorating weather.
That’s why we, in Central Florida, can believe Nov. is here. We’ve waited long and hard!
:-S
Peter L.
What is a blockquote?
I think that’s where my puppy went wrong and yours didn’t.
PS.
Good Morning, all!
Peter L.
I will do that for my children today. I’m sure your mother absolutely hated to leave her children behind and would reach out to you today if she could.
I’m so sorry. I didn’t realize that you grew up without your mother.
I hate to post so many times in a row, but Peter L.
I just wanted you to know that I read your post after posting my second post.
We were posting at the same time for the first one, and when I saw your name, I had the virtual puppy on my mind. (I had left you a message on yesterday’s W.V.)
After I read your post, I was mortified at my unintentional insensitivity.
I apologize.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21571977/
Just felt it was an important article.
Grief is an odd thing, and it often turns up when we don’t expect it and for a long time. Blessings to you this day, Peter L.
It in the midst of the other insanity of yesterday, I went in for a mammogram. As the technician was manipulating my body into all the unnatural places the machine requires, I happened to comment, “two of my family died from breast cancer since I was here last year.”
The woman stopped in her tracks and then began asking questions.
Everythe people pleaser, I consoled her, “Oh, it’s not as bad as it sounds. My aunt was not a blood relation, but then, my cousin . . . ”
I went into the grim details, including that at 49 she had had a clear mammogram and six weeks later found a lump–it was stage FOUR breast cancer.
The technician stepped back and began to explain how difficult the job can be, and so forth.
But I was stuck on my story and hurried to tell her, “a family member is an oncologist at the hospital she went to and demanded to see the mammogram, she didn’t believe anything could go that fast. But my cousin’s oncologist confirmed it–the mammogram was clear, the cancer very agressive.”
The woman relaxed, and I got a very thorough mammogram. And I cried all the way home.
Peter and I both may be remembering because today is All Saints Day. Our church will list everyone from the congregation and among our families who died in the last year and toll an organ bell for them on Sunday. Unfortunately, this year will include a lot of tolls in our aging congregation. Three for my family alone.
Peter L. and Michelle, I’m sorry for both your losses. I’ve lost both parents, all but one uncle/aunt (wasn’t close to any of them except I know the one I haven’t yet lost), and multiple senior friends. And most of my friends are going through the mother/parents in her/their last weeks/months/years phase. It isn’t easy. Death is still an enemy till we reach the other side.
As ya’ll know, I have been without my voice for 4 months. Today I go for a second opinion on whether or not to have a biopsy done on my vocal cords, which is scheduled for the 15th of this month. I’m trying to remain positive.
*****
Like Lynn, I can’t believe it’s Nov. 1st already. Ya’ll realize that 3 weeks from today is Thanksgiving? It’s not too early to be thinking about what you’re thankful for, as I’m sure that will be the theme on here for Thanksgiving Day.
I don’t know about anyone else, but for me, the last two months of the year become a blur and fly by so fast! I saw the first commercial for Christmas on TV last week - I was appalled.
*****
Peter L.,
I am thinking about you today and wishing you a comforting day!
I was browsing through the bios last night and noticed that quite a few of the regulars listed PCA as their denomination. I’ve been looking for a new church, specifically not the denomination of my former church [which has gotten quite liberal], but can’t decide which way to turn. I wonder if some of you would take a moment to tell me why PCA was the right place for you. There are 2 PCA churches not far from me, but I don’t know any members of either.
Peter L,
I will certainly be thinking of you and praying for you today. I have also been thinking of my mother’s death today, not because she died on Nov. 1 but because it was her birthday, and this is only a little over a year since her death.
She always liked to joke that she must be a saint since she was born on All Saints Day.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21563190/
I thought this one was hysterical. It’s all about government employees who are balking from going to Iraq.
Kayvee,
, feel free to contact me off-blog: [email protected]
Although I haven’t been a member, but I’ve attended several, have many PCA friends, and our denomination is virtually identical in belief and practice. (We have different historical roots, which is why we’re similar, but not merged.)
Since I don’t qualify
But you know, the Lord is always good and after my emotional cleansing, we had to go to church for Trunk and Treat. I had breezed through the house with the laundry basket and picked up all the Star Warsparaphernalia the kids have left, including two very cool light sabers that really work.
When we got to church, we decorated the car–placing the Lego R2D2 front and center–then put on white robes with leather belts. The Jedi were here.
So much fun. The Ipod blasted the appropriate music (competing with Veggie Tales in the next van), and the kids were excited by all the junk we have. And of course Darth Vader showed up periodically.
“Darth Vader!” My husband–Jedi Dr. Phil–and I would jump up, turn on our light sabers (they make the sound) and guard the candy. Sometimes we would have mock fights (sabers make the sound) and occasionally we would let a wide-eyed young boy brandish the saber. It was a lot of fun.
We had the occasional interesting conversation: “You guys must really be into Star Wars.
“No, we’re just the parents of fans.”
A sheriff brought the narcotics dog for show and tell; two young men tired from a weekend of partying, brought their golf clubs and let the kids putt. It was a good night. Thanks be to God, creativity, friends and the healing power of laughter.
Scott Robinson wins! The Grapes of Wrath is correct. And now I present you with your very own digital puppy!…
Okay, I still don’t know how to make a digital puppy. Announcing…
The Official WMB Emoti-puppy Contest….
Great stories, Michelle. Thank you for sharing.
The “Jedi Dr. Phil” cracked me up!
Looks like my Halloween Gravatar finally arrived. A day late and a gravatar short.
Travis Birkenstock suggested I give out virtual puppies instead of $$$$, soooo…
I need to know how to make a digital dog!
Please submit your entries for Best Emoti-Puppy. Grand Prize is…
Digital self-actualization and the congratulations and virtual respect of an entire community.
Lynn, how come we haven’t had anything new in the “Academy” for two weeks? That was a promising little section for a while there.
RDEAN: They ought to be obliged to go. It’s part of their job. Sust as a soldier is.
However, this may be a blessing in discuise. I think the fewer State Department people we have over there, the better. They never work toward solutions, only “agreements”.
michelle, my oldest granddaughter had a “Trunk & Treat” at their church last night. She was in charge. I hope theirs was as good as yours.
…and those darn “agreements” are exactly why we’re in such trouble in Iraq today.
To all- Thank you for your kind words. I guess this year my mother is on my mind more since my wife’s father died on Mother’s Day.
Here is the digital puppy EYG tried to create and I modified with the blockquote function.
o xxxxx9
/\ /\
EYG- This is done with the before the “@@”, then after the “@@”. This indents the text. It is similar to the italics and bold options. Credit to Make it Man; I learned this from him yesterday.
KayVee,
I grew up in a PCA church and have been there ever since. Actually, my early years were in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod (often linked with Francis Schaeffer), which merged with the PCA in the early 80s.
I have stayed with the PCA primarily because it has held to its conservative foundation while some Presbyterian denominations have grown increasingly liberal. This is partly due to solid leadership (including heavyweights R.C. Sproul, Ligon Duncan, and Tim Keller) and a strict adherence to the Westminster Confession.
The reason you are seeing so many PCA folk on this blog is that World Magazine has a close tie with the denomination, in that it’s editor (Olasky) and its founder (Belz) are members…at least, I assume they still are.
I prefer kittens, myself
=^.^=
Lynn,
Thanks for the virtual puppy! Will I have to take it for virtual walks?
Peter L and Michelle,
Thanks for sharing your stories. My condolences to both of you.
Anlir,
Best of luck on your biopsy. I’ll keep you in my prayers (even though you are a Tennessee fan).
Oh for the preview pane! EYG- the block quote function is similar to the italics and bold we have had here for a while. Use this key sequence: SHFT+, then the word blockquote followed by SHFT+. then the text you want indented. After that use teh same sequence, adding / before the word blockquote. I tried explaing it in my above post, but failed to realize the explanation did not show because of the > and
I want to take back my comments about Hillary. She just retains a lot of water in all the wrong places
R Dean,
Tell the truth. Be honest - you said yesterday in the Obama looking at Hillary’s water retention tread yesterday.
Ok, let’s start with you but I will come clean first. I will take issue with just one of your less than truthful issues above to prove my point that foolish people should test their assumptions for facts before they draw erroneous conclusions from them.
You say that Bush was involved in failed and bankrupt companies. Not just one company, as so many on the left claim, you say companies - as in plural. This is of course a lie because the facts speak for themselves and why no, not one, reputable source has ever claimed that Bush was involved in a failed or bankrupt company.
The one company, and subsequently many others, the liars on the left like to sight was Bush’s oil company ‘Arbusto Energy’ that he founded when he lived in Midland Texas with a $20,000 family gift he received after getting his MBA from Harvard. Bush was not the majority stock owner of Arbusto, not even among members of Arbusto’s board but he did run it. It takes a lot more more money than $20,000 to start an oil company - even a tiny one like Arbusto. Arbusto never made money but it did not fail nor did it go bankrupt. This of course was true about the vast, and I mean vast, majority of Texas oil companies at the time.
In 1984 another oil company Spectrum 7, a larger one but still small, merged with Arbusto, they kept the Spectrum 7 name and Bush was named Chairman and CEO of Spectrum even though he was again a minority owner. The Bush name is legendary in the domestic and international oil business (not because of George) and Bush traded on his oil family name several times over the years. He also traded on another family name in baseball too - Walker - the founder and owner of the NY Mets when he bought 1.8%, a tiny amount, of the new Texas Rangers franchise. People trade on their names all the time - I do it myself when necessary - so it is wise to have a good one or two like Bush.
Spectrum 7 never made any money money (before or after Bush was involved in it) but it never failed nor was it bankrupt either. In 1986, Spectrum was bought by another oil company, Harkin Oil and Gas that was owned and controlled by George Soros (who would have guessed but business can make for strange bedfellows sometime)and George Bush was named President and board member with a salary of $120,000 a year. George Soros also gave Bush $600,000 worth of Harkin stock on top of buying out Bush’s small amount of Spectrum 7 stock. Soros is a very smart man and he gave Bush free Harkin stock for very good reason even though he had never met him. Soros needed the Bush name and international oil contacts but more on that later.
The Bush controversy for the left started in 1990 and had nothing to do with failed or bankrupt companies. It had to do with an SEC investigation of insider Harkin Oil and Gas stock trading by Bush on June 22, 1990. Bush sold the stock that Soros has given him at $4 a share netting $848,000 and two months later Harkin announced a $24 loss. Two years later, a full 2 years my friends, Harkin stock fell to $2.38, even though it rebounded to $3 the next day.
This became an issue for the left when Bush’s dad was running for re-election as President in 1992 and they were looking for any dirt they could on him or his family. The SEC had already done a full investigation of this stock trade which was initiated when Bush failed to file his closing SEC form 4 on time and submitted it 8 months late. Bush had notified the SEC he intended to sell his Harkin stock and why, had talked to the company lawyers to make sure that he would be following every SEC rule for the sale and that he would not fall afoul of insider trading regulations.
The reason that Bush needed to sell his Harkin stock was because he was asked to join the group of investors that were going to buy the Texas Rangers and he needed $600,000 to buy a 1.8% interest in the team and he only had $100,000 in cash to do so.
The majority future owners of the Rangers didn’t need Bush’s measly $600,000, they were all multi, multi millionaires but they needed his Walker family name and tight baseball connection to the powerful family members who owned the NY Mets in order to secure the next baseball franchise. When the team was secured from MLB and the franchise in hand, the real rich owners of the New Texas Rangers immediately gave George Bush what they considered a well earned reward of an additional 10.2% of team ownership, at no cost to Bush, bringing his total ownership in the team to 12% - which only cost him a total of $600,000. Bush, not so later, sold his 12% interest in the Rangers for nearly $15 million. Now back to oil.
What many people do not realize about the Texas oil business during the late 70’s until 1986, if they were not involved in it and or rich, is that the US income tax laws were quite favorable to extremely wealthy individuals, way more rich than George Bush, who could own limited partnerships involved in all kinds of things that lost money and be able to write off income profits in other businesses unrelated to their limited partnership interests - and save huge piles of money in income taxes doing so. Rich folks like doctors and lawyers formed limited partnerships that built and owned shopping centers, as example, where they could offset their real income being a doctor and a lawyer against losses they showed on paper in the their limited partnerships - and not pay any taxes. The 1986 tax law changed all that, alone with the ATM, of course and most of these limited partner tax shelters, but not all, are now IRS taboo.
I ask you two questions. When did George Bush start his first oil company Arbusto, later merge it with Spectrum 7 and what kind of oil business were these two oil companies in? Why, low and behold it was exactly between 1977 and 1986 when Spectrum 7 was sold to George Soros’ Harkin Oil and Gas. Arbusto and Spectrum 7 were companies that specialized in setting up oil and gas drilling limited partnerships for wealthy individuals for them to be able to write off the earned income in other ventures plain and simple. This was the basis of Bush’s oil companies and why they were formed.
I will ask another question. Who knows what particular topic Bush’s masters thesis was on when he received his MBA from Harvard? I will give you two hints. It wasn’t the double taxation of corporate dividends that Bush classmate Christopher Cox wrote about - fascinating reading by the way. Cox was a classmate of Bush who managed to graduate from Harvard with highest honors as editor of the Law Review while getting his MBA and Law degree at the same time - in 3 years! Bush appointed Cox Chairman of the SEC in June 2005.
My second hint is read as many MBA thesis’ you can - if you want to make money. That is how I stumbled onto Zahorcack’s, The Art of Low Risk Investing, as another fine example. Back to oil and Bush.
As you might guess, without researching the facts like I have, the goal of Bush’s oil companies was to lose money. I know it sounds crazy but there was big money for the owners of Bush’s companies, Bush was never anywhere close to a majority owner in any of them, and huge tax write offs for the wealthy individuals who bought ownership rights in the limited partnerships that Bush’s companies were in the business of selling.
There is one lose end I would like to tie up with another question that also deals with the Bush oil company name and their contacts. Why would George Sosros’ Harkin Oil and Gas want to buy Bush’s Spectrum 7 in 1986, when the entire thrust of Spectrum 7 was to lose money in the oil business for tax purposes - when the tax laws were changing at exactly that time to stop this tax shelter practice? Sounds like Spectrum was soon to be toast business wise as the IRS was putting them out of business and no one would want it. Wrong, of course. Don’t forget George Soros was and is one very smart cookie and was one of the richest men in the world in 1986 and he was in the oil business too.
George Soros was working very hard in 1986 to land the rights from Bahrain to drill for oil in Bahrain for Harkin Oil. Sounds big in Soros terms and just right for him, way beyond little Bush’s Spectrum 7 that was losing money on purpose. But it is even better than that. These were not just drilling rights in Bahrain - they were exclusive drilling rights, meaning no one else could drill there. This was very big oil league. Soros didn’t even know George Bush or had even ever heard about his tiny spectrum 7 oil company (according to George Soros’ own public testimony) but he did know that the Bush family had the very best oil business contacts in the world - inside the Bahrain Oil Potentate.
According to Soros and no one else, buying Spectrum 7, giving Bush the Presidency of Harkin along with $600,000 in Harkin stock was the price Soros had to pay to gain the exclusive oil business access that the Bush family had in the Bahrain monarchy. Soros wasn’t leaving anything to chance when it came to exclusive Bahrain oil drilling rights and he covered every base, dotted every i and crossed every t - like the smart business man he is. He made a killing when he sold his huge amount Harkin stock for $9 a share - all thanks to George Bush and his name he traded fairly - quite frequently and well each and every time.
So your little lie about Bush’s failed and bankrupt businesses is fully exposed for all to see. He actually did quite well for himself, his investors, limited partners, majority company owners, his family, baseball and even a sworn enemy - George Soros.
So, it is quite obvious, that Bush was never associated with any failed or bankrupt business of any kind in his life - and you were not only duped into thinking he was but plaid like a pawn to repeat someone else lies. Now who would do that to you.
So KDEAN to leave you with more than you started with I will give you a piece of advice - for free. I will warn you that ideologues on the left will spin webs of lies to pawns like you who they know will repeat them because they know you are too lazy to test out the facts, assumptions and conclusions they swill to their piggies.
Don’t be taken for a fool and be a piggy.
That’s about all the truth and honesty I am will come clean with today for you but I may take up some of your other repeated lies later:-)
Almost forgot, for you non Illegal Aliens - Arbusto is Bush in Spanish and Bush could speak it well even back in 1977
Aargh! I give up!
KayVee:
I’m PCA now. Raised Baptist, and the last few years in my Baptist Chicago church I knew I’d go PCA when I moved, but I waited till I moved (four years ago). Here’s what I like:
-the emphasis on God’s sovereignty and God’s grace
-the ability to admit our sins, and to truly be “iron sharpening iron” to one another
-the elder leadership
-the strong male leadership, but equally strong support of women using their gifts
Once I read the Westminster Confession of Faith and the like, there was no going back. I’d been a Christian for 30 years, but I fell in love with God all over again, and I wanted to be part of a conservative, Reformed church. I also personally like the public affirmations of faith (such as saying the creeds together). My church uses a mix of music, mostly good; I would much sooner see all hymns than all choruses (my Chicago church leaned too heavily on choruses, and used a lot of bad ones, in my opinion).
With anything, individual churches vary, but it’s a very missions-minded, theologically conservative, God-affirming, people-loving denomination in my opinion, and I’m happy to be a member.
I want to take back my comments about Hillary Yesterday . She just retains a lot of water in all the wrong places
R Dean from yesterdays Clinton falters - Obamma Confused thread,
Tell the truth. Be honest - you said yesterday in the Obama looking at Hillary’s water retention picture.
Ok, let’s start with you but I will come clean first. I will take issue with just one of your less than truthful issues above to prove my point that foolish people should test their assumptions for facts before they draw erroneous conclusions from them.
You say that Bush was involved in failed and bankrupt companies. Not just one company, as so many on the left claim, you say companies - as in plural. This is of course a lie because the facts speak for themselves and why no, not one, reputable source has ever claimed that Bush was involved in a failed or bankrupt company.
The one company, and subsequently many others, the liars on the left like to sight was Bush’s oil company ‘Arbusto Energy’ that he founded when he lived in Midland Texas with a $20,000 family gift he received after getting his MBA from Harvard. Bush was not the majority stock owner of Arbusto, not even among members of Arbusto’s board but he did run it. It takes a lot more more money than $20,000 to start an oil company - even a tiny one like Arbusto. Arbusto never made money but it did not fail nor did it go bankrupt. This of course was true about the vast, and I mean vast, majority of Texas oil companies at the time.
In 1984 another oil company Spectrum 7, a larger one but still small, merged with Arbusto, they kept the Spectrum 7 name and Bush was named Chairman and CEO of Spectrum even though he was again a minority owner. The Bush name is legendary in the domestic and international oil business (not because of George) and Bush traded on his oil family name several times over the years. He also traded on another family name in baseball too - Walker - the founder and owner of the NY Mets when he bought 1.8%, a tiny amount, of the new Texas Rangers franchise. People trade on their names all the time - I do it myself when necessary - so it is wise to have a good one or two like Bush.
Spectrum 7 never made any money money (before or after Bush was involved in it) but it never failed nor was it bankrupt either. In 1986, Spectrum was bought by another oil company, Harkin Oil and Gas that was owned and controlled by George Soros (who would have guessed but business can make for strange bedfellows sometime)and George Bush was named President and board member with a salary of $120,000 a year. George Soros also gave Bush $600,000 worth of Harkin stock on top of buying out Bush’s small amount of Spectrum 7 stock. Soros is a very smart man and he gave Bush free Harkin stock for very good reason even though he had never met him. Soros needed the Bush name and international oil contacts but more on that later.
Continued,
The Bush controversy for the left started in 1990 and had nothing to do with failed or bankrupt companies. It had to do with an SEC investigation of insider Harkin Oil and Gas stock trading by Bush on June 22, 1990. Bush sold the stock that Soros has given him at $4 a share netting $848,000 and two months later Harkin announced a $24 loss. Two years later, a full 2 years my friends, Harkin stock fell to $2.38, even though it rebounded to $3 the next day.
This became an issue for the left when Bush’s dad was running for re-election as President in 1992 and they were looking for any dirt they could on him or his family. The SEC had already done a full investigation of this stock trade which was initiated when Bush failed to file his closing SEC form 4 on time and submitted it 8 months late. Bush had notified the SEC he intended to sell his Harkin stock and why, had talked to the company lawyers to make sure that he would be following every SEC rule for the sale and that he would not fall afoul of insider trading regulations.
The reason that Bush needed to sell his Harkin stock was because he was asked to join the group of investors that were going to buy the Texas Rangers and he needed $600,000 to buy a 1.8% interest in the team and he only had $100,000 in cash to do so.
The majority future owners of the Rangers didn’t need Bush’s measly $600,000, they were all multi, multi millionaires but they needed his Walker family name and tight baseball connection to the powerful family members who owned the NY Mets in order to secure the next baseball franchise. When the team was secured from MLB and the franchise in hand, the real rich owners of the New Texas Rangers immediately gave George Bush what they considered a well earned reward of an additional 10.2% of team ownership, at no cost to Bush, bringing his total ownership in the team to 12% - which only cost him a total of $600,000. Bush, not so later, sold his 12% interest in the Rangers for nearly $15 million. Now back to oil.
What many people do not realize about the Texas oil business during the late 70’s until 1986, if they were not involved in it and or rich, is that the US income tax laws were quite favorable to extremely wealthy individuals, way more rich than George Bush, who could own limited partnerships involved in all kinds of things that lost money and be able to write off income profits in other businesses unrelated to their limited partnership interests - and save huge piles of money in income taxes doing so. Rich folks like doctors and lawyers formed limited partnerships that built and owned shopping centers, as example, where they could offset their real income being a doctor and a lawyer against losses they showed on paper in the their limited partnerships - and not pay any taxes. The 1986 tax law changed all that, alone with the ATM, of course and most of these limited partner tax shelters, but not all, are now IRS taboo.
I ask you two questions. When did George Bush start his first oil company Arbusto, later merge it with Spectrum 7 and what kind of oil business were these two oil companies in? Why, low and behold it was exactly between 1977 and 1986 when Spectrum 7 was sold to George Soros’ Harkin Oil and Gas. Arbusto and Spectrum 7 were companies that specialized in setting up oil and gas drilling limited partnerships for wealthy individuals for them to be able to write off the earned income in other ventures plain and simple. This was the basis of Bush’s oil companies and why they were formed.
I will ask another question. Who knows what particular topic Bush’s masters thesis was on when he received his MBA from Harvard? I will give you two hints. It wasn’t the double taxation of corporate dividends that Bush classmate Christopher Cox wrote about - fascinating reading by the way. Cox was a classmate of Bush who managed to graduate from Harvard with highest honors as editor of the Law Review while getting his MBA and Law degree at the same time - in 3 years! Bush appointed Cox Chairman of the SEC in June 2005.
My second hint is read as many MBA thesis’ you can - if you want to make money. That is how I stumbled onto Zahorcack’s, The Art of Low Risk Investing, as another fine example. Back to oil and Bush.
As you might guess, without researching the facts like I have, the goal of Bush’s oil companies was to lose money. I know it sounds crazy but there was big money for the owners of Bush’s companies, Bush was never anywhere close to a majority owner in any of them, and huge tax write offs for the wealthy individuals who bought ownership rights in the limited partnerships that Bush’s companies were in the business of selling.
There is one lose end I would like to tie up with another question that also deals with the Bush oil company name and their contacts. Why would George Sosros’ Harkin Oil and Gas want to buy Bush’s Spectrum 7 in 1986, when the entire thrust of Spectrum 7 was to lose money in the oil business for tax purposes - when the tax laws were changing at exactly that time to stop this tax shelter practice? Sounds like Spectrum was soon to be toast business wise as the IRS was putting them out of business and no one would want it. Wrong, of course. Don’t forget George Soros was and is one very smart cookie and was one of the richest men in the world in 1986 and he was in the oil business too.
George Soros was working very hard in 1986 to land the rights from Bahrain to drill for oil in Bahrain for Harkin Oil. Sounds big in Soros terms and just right for him, way beyond little Bush’s Spectrum 7 that was losing money on purpose. But it is even better than that. These were not just drilling rights in Bahrain - they were exclusive drilling rights, meaning no one else could drill there. This was very big oil league. Soros didn’t even know George Bush or had even ever heard about his tiny spectrum 7 oil company (according to George Soros’ own public testimony) but he did know that the Bush family had the very best oil business contacts in the world - inside the Bahrain Oil Potentate.
According to Soros and no one else, buying Spectrum 7, giving Bush the Presidency of Harkin along with $600,000 in Harkin stock was the price Soros had to pay to gain the exclusive oil business access that the Bush family had in the Bahrain monarchy. Soros wasn’t leaving anything to chance when it came to exclusive Bahrain oil drilling rights and he covered every base, dotted every i and crossed every t - like the smart business man he is. He made a killing when he sold his huge amount Harkin stock for $9 a share - all thanks to George Bush and his name he traded fairly - quite frequently and well each and every time.
So your little lie about Bush’s failed and bankrupt businesses is fully exposed for all to see. He actually did quite well for himself, his investors, limited partners, majority company owners, his family, baseball and even a sworn enemy - George Soros.
So, it is quite obvious, that Bush was never associated with any failed or bankrupt business of any kind in his life - and you were not only duped into thinking he was but plaid like a pawn to repeat someone else lies. Now who would do that to you.
So KDEAN to leave you with more than you started with I will give you a piece of advice - for free. I will warn you that ideologues on the left will spin webs of lies to pawns like you who they know will repeat them because they know you are too lazy to test out the facts, assumptions and conclusions they swill to their piggies.
Don’t be taken for a fool and be a piggy.
That’s about all the truth and honesty I am will come clean with today for you but I may take up some of your other repeated lies later:-)
Almost forgot, for you non Illegal Aliens - Arbusto is Bush in Spanish and Bush could speak it well even back in 1977
continued,
My second hint is read as many MBA thesis’ you can - if you want to make money. That is how I stumbled onto Zahorcack’s, The Art of Low Risk Investing, as another fine example. Back to oil and Bush.
As you might guess, without researching the facts like I have, the goal of Bush’s oil companies was to lose money. I know it sounds crazy but there was big money for the owners of Bush’s companies, Bush was never anywhere close to a majority owner in any of them, and huge tax write offs for the wealthy individuals who bought ownership rights in the limited partnerships that Bush’s companies were in the business of selling.
There is one lose end I would like to tie up with another question that also deals with the Bush oil company name and their contacts. Why would George Sosros’ Harkin Oil and Gas want to buy Bush’s Spectrum 7 in 1986, when the entire thrust of Spectrum 7 was to lose money in the oil business for tax purposes - when the tax laws were changing at exactly that time to stop this tax shelter practice? Sounds like Spectrum was soon to be toast business wise as the IRS was putting them out of business and no one would want it. Wrong, of course. Don’t forget George Soros was and is one very smart cookie and was one of the richest men in the world in 1986 and he was in the oil business too.
George Soros was working very hard in 1986 to land the rights from Bahrain to drill for oil in Bahrain for Harkin Oil. Sounds big in Soros terms and just right for him, way beyond little Bush’s Spectrum 7 that was losing money on purpose. But it is even better than that. These were not just drilling rights in Bahrain - they were exclusive drilling rights, meaning no one else could drill there. This was very big oil league. Soros didn’t even know George Bush or had even ever heard about his tiny spectrum 7 oil company (according to George Soros’ own public testimony) but he did know that the Bush family had the very best oil business contacts in the world - inside the Bahrain Oil Potentate.
According to Soros and no one else, buying Spectrum 7, giving Bush the Presidency of Harkin along with $600,000 in Harkin stock was the price Soros had to pay to gain the exclusive oil business access that the Bush family had in the Bahrain monarchy. Soros wasn’t leaving anything to chance when it came to exclusive Bahrain oil drilling rights and he covered every base, dotted every i and crossed every t - like the smart business man he is. He made a killing when he sold his huge amount Harkin stock for $9 a share - all thanks to George Bush and his name he traded fairly - quite frequently and well each and every time.
So your little lie about Bush’s failed and bankrupt businesses is fully exposed for all to see. He actually did quite well for himself, his investors, limited partners, majority company owners, his family, baseball and even a sworn enemy - George Soros.
So, it is quite obvious, that Bush was never associated with any failed or bankrupt business of any kind in his life - and you were not only duped into thinking he was but plaid like a pawn to repeat someone else lies. Now who would do that to you.
So KDEAN to leave you with more than you started with I will give you a piece of advice - for free. I will warn you that ideologues on the left will spin webs of lies to pawns like you who they know will repeat them because they know you are too lazy to test out the facts, assumptions and conclusions they swill to their piggies.
Don’t be taken for a fool and be a piggy.
That’s about all the truth and honesty I am will come clean with today for you but I may take up some of your other repeated lies later:-)
Almost forgot, for you non Illegal Aliens - Arbusto is Bush in Spanish and Bush could speak it well even back in 1977
Continued,
My second hint is read as many MBA thesis’ you can - if you want to make money. That is how I stumbled onto Zahorcack’s, The Art of Low Risk Investing, as another fine example. Back to oil and Bush.
As you might guess, without researching the facts like I have, the goal of Bush’s oil companies was to lose money. I know it sounds crazy but there was big money for the owners of Bush’s companies, Bush was never anywhere close to a majority owner in any of them, and huge tax write offs for the wealthy individuals who bought ownership rights in the limited partnerships that Bush’s companies were in the business of selling.
There is one lose end I would like to tie up with another question that also deals with the Bush oil company name and their contacts. Why would George Sosros’ Harkin Oil and Gas want to buy Bush’s Spectrum 7 in 1986, when the entire thrust of Spectrum 7 was to lose money in the oil business for tax purposes - when the tax laws were changing at exactly that time to stop this tax shelter practice? Sounds like Spectrum was soon to be toast business wise as the IRS was putting them out of business and no one would want it. Wrong, of course. Don’t forget George Soros was and is one very smart cookie and was one of the richest men in the world in 1986 and he was in the oil business too.
George Soros was working very hard in 1986 to land the rights from Bahrain to drill for oil in Bahrain for Harkin Oil. Sounds big in Soros terms and just right for him, way beyond little Bush’s Spectrum 7 that was losing money on purpose. But it is even better than that. These were not just drilling rights in Bahrain - they were exclusive drilling rights, meaning no one else could drill there. This was very big oil league. Soros didn’t even know George Bush or had even ever heard about his tiny spectrum 7 oil company (according to George Soros’ own public testimony) but he did know that the Bush family had the very best oil business contacts in the world - inside the Bahrain Oil Potentate.
According to Soros and no one else, buying Spectrum 7, giving Bush the Presidency of Harkin along with $600,000 in Harkin stock was the price Soros had to pay to gain the exclusive oil business access that the Bush family had in the Bahrain monarchy. Soros wasn’t leaving anything to chance when it came to exclusive Bahrain oil drilling rights and he covered every base, dotted every i and crossed every t - like the smart business man he is. He made a killing when he sold his huge amount Harkin stock for $9 a share - all thanks to George Bush and his name he traded fairly - quite frequently and well each and every time.
So your little lie about Bush’s failed and bankrupt businesses is fully exposed for all to see. He actually did quite well for himself, his investors, limited partners, majority company owners, his family, baseball and even a sworn enemy - George Soros.
ontinued,
My second hint is read as many MBA thesis’ you can - if you want to make money. That is how I stumbled onto Zahorcack’s, The Art of Low Risk Investing, as another fine example. Back to oil and Bush.
As you might guess, without researching the facts like I have, the goal of Bush’s oil companies was to lose money. I know it sounds crazy but there was big money for the owners of Bush’s companies, Bush was never anywhere close to a majority owner in any of them, and huge tax write offs for the wealthy individuals who bought ownership rights in the limited partnerships that Bush’s companies were in the business of selling.
There is one lose end I would like to tie up with another question that also deals with the Bush oil company name and their contacts. Why would George Sosros’ Harkin Oil and Gas want to buy Bush’s Spectrum 7 in 1986, when the entire thrust of Spectrum 7 was to lose money in the oil business for tax purposes - when the tax laws were changing at exactly that time to stop this tax shelter practice? Sounds like Spectrum was soon to be toast business wise as the IRS was putting them out of business and no one would want it. Wrong, of course. Don’t forget George Soros was and is one very smart cookie and was one of the richest men in the world in 1986 and he was in the oil business too.
George Soros was working very hard in 1986 to land the rights from Bahrain to drill for oil in Bahrain for Harkin Oil. Sounds big in Soros terms and just right for him, way beyond little Bush’s Spectrum 7 that was losing money on purpose. But it is even better than that. These were not just drilling rights in Bahrain - they were exclusive drilling rights, meaning no one else could drill there. This was very big oil league. Soros didn’t even know George Bush or had even ever heard about his tiny spectrum 7 oil company (according to George Soros’ own public testimony) but he did know that the Bush family had the very best oil business contacts in the world - inside the Bahrain Oil Potentate.
According to Soros and no one else, buying Spectrum 7, giving Bush the Presidency of Harkin along with $600,000 in Harkin stock was the price Soros had to pay to gain the exclusive oil business access that the Bush family had in the Bahrain monarchy. Soros wasn’t leaving anything to chance when it came to exclusive Bahrain oil drilling rights and he covered every base, dotted every i and crossed every t - like the smart business man he is. He made a killing when he sold his huge amount Harkin stock for $9 a share - all thanks to George Bush and his name he traded fairly - quite frequently and well each and every time.
Last continuation,
So your little lie about Bush’s failed and bankrupt businesses is fully exposed for all to see. He actually did quite well for himself, his investors, limited partners, majority company owners, his family, baseball and even a sworn enemy - George Soros.
So, it is quite obvious, that Bush was never associated with any failed or bankrupt business of any kind in his life - and you were not only duped into thinking he was but plaid like a pawn to repeat someone else lies. Now who would do that to you.
So KDEAN to leave you with more than you started with I will give you a piece of advice - for free. I will warn you that ideologues on the left will spin webs of lies to pawns like you who they know will repeat them because they know you are too lazy to test out the facts, assumptions and conclusions they swill to their piggies.
Don’t be taken for a fool and be a piggy.
That’s about all the truth and honesty I am will come clean with today for you but I may take up some of your other repeated lies later:-)
Almost forgot, for you non Illegal Aliens - Arbusto is Bush in Spanish and Bush could speak it well even back in 1977
Sorry for the length. Some lies take more time to clear up than others.
Lynn,
Let’s resume that Puppy Emoticon contest when we get the PREVIEW feature working. I’ve tried to submit a couple of ASCII puppies, only to have them turn out very differently than intended. Very differently . As in, remember those Star Trek episodes when the transporter malfunctions?
I don’t want to hurt any more puppies.
Sorry for the repeated posts. When I hit submit it wouldn’t show up like usual so I thought they were lost in Internet space.
Peter L,
Thanks for the primer on the blockquotes. I think I understand, and will play around with it, later.
Travis: lol… One could always just preserve their bytes in the computer and reassemble them once the gear gets fixed, no?
What if you don’t want a puppy?
New Feature Idea:
Favorites.
Running through “previous posts” to find older discussions is irksomely inefficient. It would be very useful to allow users to keep a handy record of the topics and resulting discussions which one has found most stimulating bookmarked for easy access. It would also help tremendously when there’s an ongoing discussion taking place on a past thread.
llama,
The investment book arrived by interlibrary loan. I haven’t read it yet. I haven’t made a million dollars yet. I haven’t even made 3.99 yet.
I will keep you posted on when I reach the 3.99. (I will include the brokerage fee in my calculations; otherwise, it would be misleading.)
Speaking of death, my aun’t husband (how come we never say uncle-in-law or aunt-in-law?) died a few months ago. She is printing fine art calendars (printing with a color printer) and selling them to relatives and any other suckers (I mean fine and generous people) to make some money. As soon as I buy her a new computer and monitor and color printer (which I may do today) so she can print them, I may offer them to sale to you, although none of you are suckers. This may be a better idea than flash drives imprinted with “Jesus Saves” (though I haven’t given up on that idea either).
The money will go entirely to my aunt. I am proud of her (she is in her 80s) for sellign something instead of begging or whining, so I will aid and abet her.
I am probably buying the equipment from a Staples in New York City. Their corporate slogan is “That Was Easy”.
After several telephone conversations with them, I might have grounds for a class action suit.
I just returned from the ENT specialist, where I got a second opinion on getting a biopsy of my vocal cords. After an extensive scope (yes, it hurt, but it wasn’t horrible), he informed me that my vocal cords are completely paralyzed on one side. It’s most likely from a viral infection. I will have an MRI and CT scan of my vocal cords in a few weeks. If everything comes back ok, they will give me an injection of gel that will make my vocal cords start working for the next 6-12 months. In that time they will hopefully heal so that no further injections will be necessary. Surgery is a last resort. Bottom line: I hope to be talking by Christmas. You don’t know how much you miss being able to talk until you can’t anymore.
Just wanted to point out that PCA is *Reformed.* This means that they don’t believe in free will.
They use the standard (illogical) argument that “if you can say no to God then He isn’t really God at all.” They will also claim that God MUST control every aspect of everything, or He isn’t God at all (which is very different from saying that God CAN control every aspect, but chooses not to in order to give us some free will.) So, as you can see, they are very “in” to limiting God (although they’ll tell you the exact opposite.)
They believe in pre-destination. Some go so far as to be hyper-Calvinists (i.e. Every move you make, or a leaf makes, or anything makes was pre-destined by God, who controls our every action like a puppet master.)
They take God’s sovereignty very seriously, but often forget about God’s love and grace. God is someone to be feared and worshiped, but they forget about Him being “Abba” or “daddy.”
Much of their theology comes from St. Augustine, who was heavily influenced by Greek thought. This is particularly true of the deterministic aspects of the theology. The Greeks saw the “Fates” as being unalterable and utterly in control. This transferred to God’s control of fate, and each person’s life being predestined.
I could go on, but I thought you ought to see a few reasons why I am not, nor ever will be, PCA, even though there are some really wonderful Christians who are PCA. Still, I think their theology is heavily flawed in certain areas.
#47
I love religious logic-chopping. On a cold winter day, keeps you warm, and then you have something to burn in the wood stove.
Cheryl D (#30) - That was a nicely done summary of the PCA.
I’m a part of an Independent Bible church which is very much on track with the conservative Reformed theology.
Wow, TRS. I have never heard such a botched interpretation of Reformed theology in all my life.
Where to start…
#30 Amen, Cheryl D.
Amen, all the way, including the length of time you’ve been a believer. We might have the same ‘birthdate’!
But, I’m posting to ask for prayer. But the disclaimer is that this contains upsetting material and that this post should be probably be skipped because it’s rated PG13 or R. I don’t know. I’m not in the rating business.
Long story short: the kids were doing an outreach drama downtown. (I’m purposely omitting lots of info.) It was to be both entertaining and meaningful.
They were warned, you’ll probably get called names, some people will talk dirty to you, etc., etc. Turn the other cheek.
Again, I’m omitting info and saying this:
One (or two?) young women, who were passers by jumped on the stage and started “grinding”. Some call it a dance.
My generation calls it mutual masturbation.
One of those women began this gyration on one of the girls in the outreach drama, who was on stage.
The girl was upset and confused, not prepared for this molestation. She didn’t know what to do, and found it hard to turn the other cheek.
One of the cast members (of petite stature), part of the outreach group walked on stage, and physically removed the offending ‘dancer’ from off her friend. (This girl was my daughter.)
The stranger who committed this act, was drunk, come to find out, and tried this motion on my daughter who pushed her off immediately.
“WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!” the stranger demanded.
“You are, and you’re going to have to treat us with a little more respect.”
The strange ‘dancer’ wanted to fight, but my daughter walked away.
I don’t think anyone ever considered that this particular kind of intrusion would happen.
Some people said she could have handled it better. Others thanked her.
I am just glad she isn’t hurt and that she acted to put an end to the evil being done to her friend.
I never expected to hear this kind of thing and covet your prayers for her. Please.
We told her that if her superiors didn’t support her, we did.
I don’t know scripturally where you draw the line on turning the other cheek, but what a world we live in.
I feel violated just reliving it with her. I have always raised my daughter to me a lady, but this called for action.
What a world.
correction:
*be a lady, not “me a lady”
they don’t believe in free will.
False. Reformed thinkers absolutely believe in free will. They (we) believe that man is completely free to make any choices he is able to make. For example, man has complete choice over whether or not he buys a car. It’s his choice. He cannot, however, choose to BE a car. That is not possible.
Where you and I disagree is that you think the unregenerate man is able to come to God by his own choice. I, on the other hand, believe man is unable to choose God until the Holy Spirit has given him life. It’s not an issue of will. It’s an issue of ability.
They believe in pre-destination.
You’re right, seeing how the Bible explicitly teaches it.
They take God’s sovereignty very seriously, but often forget about God’s love and grace.
Are you out of your mind! Love and Grace??? That is ALL that Reformed theology is about. It is about men who have no hope other than a loving God to show them grace. Saying a prayer won’t save them. Walking an aisle won’t save them. Only grace. You should spend some time in my reformed church, and GRACE is mostly what you will hear.
God is someone to be feared and worshiped, but they forget about Him being “Abba” or “daddy.”
Again, where are you getting this stuff??? Yes, He is to be feared and worshiped, and yes, he is Abba Father. I have never heard otherwise!
Anlir, #46 - I was voice-less for a couple of weeks several years ago, following major surgery on my jaw - not a fun time! But I knew it was temporary, which made it easier to deal with. I’ll be praying for you, that the non-surgical treatment will be effective and that you’ll recover full use of your voice soon. Take care!
Ouch Graceland - Could we extend a little grace to TRS?
Graceland,
I’m getting “this stuff” from Reformed believers. I worked in a Classical Christian school for six years. Trust me, I’ve heard all the verses, all the arguments, and all the viewpoints on Reformed thinking. I was even told that “when I matured” as a Christian, I would think similarly.
The Bible teaches free will as often as it teaches predestination. You simply choose to ignore all the verses that don’t teach your viewpoint. And, there are many.
Let me ask you how loving a God is, Graceland, who creates the VAST majority of humankind with NO ability to be saved. (Limited atonement) From these, He chooses (supposedly) only a few to be saved — not based on their works or any other merit — but just chooses them to be saved. Yet, MILLIONS — heavens, let’s be honest — BILLIONS are damned to eternal torture, with absolutely NO possibility of salvation.
These damned are no worse than those chosen to be saved, but they are damned because the Creator has the right to choose those He will (as the potter may choose which vessel to honor), and the rest are damned to eternal, unending, insufferable, horrible, torture FOREVER.
And, you don’t understand the Classic Arminian viewpoint at all if you think we believe that the Holy Spirit doesn’t give the sinner the capacity to choose. Of course, we cannot choose God on our own. But, we believe God gives that capacity to each person at points in their lives, and that He permits them to say “no.”
Granting permission, and VOLUNTARILY limiting one’s power, in no way diminishes one’s sovereignty or power. Ask any teacher or parent. Are they still in control?
Wow, EYG.
I’m glad that all was stopped, but I sure can see how that would be upsetting, especially to young adults.
My spritual birthdate is sometime in February 1972, not sure the exact date.
On the Reformed question: My sister (the only other Reformed person in my family, though she’s Baptist) has had recent conversations with two of my brothers. BOTH of them have told her that Christians are “wiser” because we accept Christ and others do not. In other words, we bring some merit to the table, even if it’s only that we’re not foolish enough to say no to the offer of salvation. That is simply unbiblical. The Bible says it is by grace ALONE that we’re saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 says even our faith is a gift from God (look at the grammar).
We are dead in our sins and bring nothing to the table. It’s not even that we believe hard enough to be saved (as I grew up hearing–”Did I really mean it when I asked Jesus to save me?”). It’s all, totally, 100% of grace.
he Bible says it is by grace ALONE that we’re saved. Ephesians 2:8-9 says even our faith is a gift from God (look at the grammar).
******Classical Arminian theology also says that we are saved by grace alone.
BILLIONS are damned to eternal torture, with absolutely NO possibility of salvation.
Question: Do they deserve it?
Another question: Do you and I deserve it? And yet God has shown us love and grace.
You simply choose to ignore all the verses that don’t teach your viewpoint.
To my knowledge, I’m not ignoring any verses.
I don’t want to use this thread to throw verses back and forth, but I do wish you would share these with me.
[email protected]
/’.’\
,(_),
My first try at puppiness - he’s sitting.
ugh… …the blog stole my first space, 2nd try:
/’.'\
,(_),
False. Reformed thinkers absolutely believe in free will. They (we) believe that man is completely free to make any choices he is able to make.
******I’m sorry, but I disagree. SOME Reformed believe that there is free will outside of the salvation issue. The vast majority believe that there is some free will, but much that God directs. And, there are others who believe that God runs the whole show like a puppet master — i.e. hyper-Calvinists.
Do they deserve it?
*****Let’s see. Do they? Let’s take Hitler. He killed 6 billion people or more in the most hideous ways possible.
Let’s torture him for a million years for each of the six billion plus people he hurt. In fact, let’s torture him a million years for EVERY person he hurt even indirectly.
Does that fulfill ETERNITY???
If I, as a sinful human being, can see the horror of that, don’t you think a loving, perfect God can see the horror of that?
He’s got a flea on his ear. Keeps his head in place
./’.’\
,(_),
I need to do something else right now, but I’ll give you a few verses off the top of my head:
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Jesus is expressing His will here, but the people are thwarting it. Does this show “irresistible grace”?
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Is the Bible inspired? Why would Joshua tell the people to CHOOSE whom they would serve if they cannot?
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Why are they blamed for not choosing the Lord? If they had no choice than they are not blame worthy.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
That the WORLD might be saved…not just the elect.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God loved the WORLD, not just the elect. He died for the whole WORLD.
I like your puppy, Derek. It is the first puppy that looks like a puppy, IMO.
EYG:
I’m praying for your daughter, (and the girl). But as you describe it, there’s no cheek to turn. It was an unfortunate event that just happened. The drunk person was the culprit. The action had to be stopped. If your daughter is a minor, some adult should have halted it before it started. “Turn the other cheek” was probably well meaning, but useless advice. It was probably meant to say ignore the name calling, etc., but not physical actions.
The kids have to be protected. That’s the reason I and other adults always went on the mission trips our young people took.
Whoops, sorry, Hitler killed six MILLION, not billion. (That would have been the whole world!)
The rest of the argument stands, though.
EYG,
blockquotes tutorial:
Replace the left bracket “[” with the “less than” symbol.
Replace the right bracket “]” with the “greater than” symbol.
Sample text:
[blockquote]
[/blockquote]
Well shucks. It didn’t retain the indentations.
A few more…quickly, I’m shirking my duties! These seem to counter “irresistible grace.” These people CHOSE to reject God.
Numbers 14:11 Then the Lord said to Moses: “How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?”
Numbers 16:30 “But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”
1 Samuel 8:7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.”
1 Samuel 10:19 “But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, `No, set a king over us!’ “
TRS,
Not sure I understand your point with Hitler. Are you saying that nobody deserves to go to hell?
Verses that seem to show that one’s “election” can be lost. One needs to be diligent:
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith [it] [is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith– 27 to God, alone wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ forever.
EYG,
I think your daughter did very well under the circumstances. I would feel violated myself. For some reason, I don’t think “turning the other cheek” means letting someone sexually assault you if you can avoid it…
For those of you missing the preview option, you can always visit a fully orbed forum (I belong to more than I can count) that has full blown software options where you don’t have to “roll your own” html code.
Forum software (such as Snitz forums makes) allows all kinds of things that we don’t have access to here. I’m lobbying for more user friendly options….
Uh… you would visit the other forums to use their preview options… Sorry, I should have mentioned that.
“Free will!”
“Predestination!”
Ok, man the ramparts!
“Free will”‘ers to the left of me.
“Predistination”‘ers to the right of me.
Load your catapults…
Hold it…hold it…
FIRE!!
Ummm…did somebody just fling a cow??
Run away! Run away!
Not sure I understand your point with Hitler. Are you saying that nobody deserves to go to hell?
******Actually, I could argue that, but it wasn’t my point here. (I believe in annihilation at the end of the age, rather than eternal torture, but most Reformed do not. So, sticking with your own belief system….)
My point was that the VAST majority of humanity that has ever lived or ever will live is condemned to Hell without ANY OPTIONS WHATSOEVER for salvation from the Reformed viewpoint.
And, since most of that vast humanity was never nearly as bad as Hitler, then God becomes the great merciless torturer for all ETERNITY in the Reformed viewpoint.
The logical conclusion to “God has elected some to salvation” is that God has condemned the rest to eternal torture without option. He condemns them through inaction to be sure, but He condemns them nevertheless. (And, since when has inaction leading to abomination become a moral excuse for most human beings?)
I think that — in order to swallow such a horror — many reformed simply don’t think too hard on what ETERNITY means.
And, honestly, what is the point? What parent wants their child to love him or her simply because the child has been *forced* to do so? Is it then really love?
Why create a race of puppets?
Just how does forcing a small minority to “love” you, and then condemning the vast majority to torture, prove one’s “grace” or “love” or “mercy” or “kindness” or “care” or anything else?
Who would bother with a race of puppets? How does saving a small minority of the puppets in anyway prove God’s grace, mercy or anything but that He is all-powerful and can do as He wishes with His creation? (Certainly, this can be proven in numerous other ways.)
I don’t believe in a monster. I believe in a Holy, just, loving, merciful, caring, FATHER. God is my Abba. He is not the eternal, uncaring, predestining, torturer. I think He desires EACH of His children to come to Him, although many *will* not. I think He gives each an opportunity though the Holy Spirit to say, “yes.” (See Wesley’s view on prevenient grace.)
And, since most of that vast humanity was never nearly as bad as Hitler, then God becomes the great merciless torturer for all ETERNITY
But I still think you’re missing my point. Do they deserve it? Does the sinner that God condemns to hell actually deserve it? If yes, then how can you complain?
It’s not as if everybody has a blank slate and God is choosing some to come to heaven. Everyone is condemned to judgment, yet God (out of his love and mercy) saves a people.
I think in all of your talk about the horror of the Potter choosing what he wants to do with clay, you are forgetting that God is a just God. And he is glorified by his justice, just like he is by his love and mercy.
TRS,
I’ve got to leave the discussion. Please feel free to email me as I could spend days discussing this. There is way too much information here to break down in this format.
Post 47 presents, it seems to me, quite a caricature of Reformed thinking. I kept looking for “[/sarcasm off],” until I read the last paragraph. TRS, I’m sorry that’s the view you have of people who hold to the Reformed tradition. My experience has been quite different.
In my experience in Reformed churches (more than 25 years), God’s love and grace have been emphasized over and over and over again. I heard about God as Abba, Father, in the Presbyterian church earlier and much more often than at the Christian school I attended from ages 4-17.
I also learned that all human beings deserve eternal punishment; we all have sinned and broken the laws of a perfectly holy God. God, as our sovereign creator, can do with each of us as he pleases. It is his pleasure to choose some to have eternal life, as a potter may choose some of his pots for “noble purposes”. As a finite creature, I will never, ever fully understand that; I can only trust that God is the judge of all the earth and he will do right. Those who are chosen to have life must never let that be a source of pride; rather it should produce a life characterized by humble, thankful service to God.
As to free will, I’m afraid that is another subject I struggle to understand. I only know that, being dead in my sin, I could never have chosen, for myself or by myself, life in Christ. As a friend once put it, “Dead men can’t choose!”
I don’t know if I can adequately express my thoughts on limited atonement, but I will try: If Jesus died for the sins of every human being - past, present, future - on the planet (i.e., the sins of the whole world), then he had to have paid for the sins of all those people. His shed blood had to have covered every sin of every person. But if even one of those whose sins he paid for does not believe and is condemned to death, that is double jeopardy, if you will, and makes the sacrifice ineffective. So Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross is sufficient to pay for the sins of all human beings, but it is effective only for those chosen for salvation. (There are many books out there that explain this far better than I can. John Murray’s “Redemption — Accomplished and Applied” is one I’d recommend, though it’s been years since I last read it.)
Had to laugh at #78. Humility and graciousness are important on all sides of the debate, aren’t they?!
TRS - Thank you for all your efforts here! It’s obvious you feel very strongly about this issue!
And I agree with you that Derek’s puppy is the best one yet - but I’m just amazed at all this talk of puppies. I certainly don’t want one.
Wishing the best for you, Anlir, and praying, too. You won’t actually sound like Bugs Bunny when your voice returns, will you?
Though, how will we ever know?
Me, too, Anlir.
I hope the very best for you.
I’m allergic to something that blooms around Thanksgiving, and have, for years, gotten laryngitis after Thanksgiving.
It can be so frustrating! I will pray about that part, that and that you’ll be able to laugh when voicelessness puts you in a funny predicament.
Thank you for sharing.
Also, about what I posted above:
I am going to have to learn how to take all thoughts captive.
This and my missing privacy hedge are taking turns vexing my thoughts. Ugh.
I really hope and pray that I will be free of the ill feeling both memories produce.
Thank you for praying and for letting me get it out there (out of me, anyways).
Thanks Michelle and EYG!
Tonight I’m going for a big milkshake to soothe my sore throat after that scope today.
I wonder how many people got my “cow” flinging and “run away!” references in #78? If you’ve ever seen Monty Python’s “Quest for the Holy Grail”, you’d get it. Well, it was funny to me anyway
Hope you get your voice back soon, Anlir. What kind of injections will you get? Botox?
Anlir- I never saw Monty Python, but the cow flinging was funny w/out knowing the reference.
I hope the shake does what you want it to. I usually find ice cold drinks hurt more when I have a sore throat. I like warm drinks like black tea with honey when my throat is sore.
TRR,
It’s a gel that slowly dissolves over 6 - 12 months. Sounds weird, no?
Anlir,
I got the cow reference, but missed the “run away” part because I didn’t hear it in the tone of voice my husband always quotes it in - which I assume is how it is said in the movie. He loves the movie, but I don’t generally watch it with him because it just doesn’t seem as funny to me.
My thought on reading your posts (besides a smile at the cow) was that I’d be standing in the middle, and probably getting attacked by both sides. Truth is usually somewhere in the middle between two extremes, but we tend to gravitate to one side or the other, and people in the middle are accused of being fencesitters.
I make decisions where I have to, but on this one I think I’ll stay on the fence. (Especially since I’m not sure which side of the fence the cow is on.)
Make it Man,
Thank you for the tutorial above.
I don’t think I’ll attempt another puppy, but you never know when you need to indent!
Thanks to all who are praying for my daughter.
Anlir - What flavor shake will you get? If it were me, I’d get vanilla or coffee-flavor.
And you can count me among those saying prayers for you.
Pauline - I agree with you that the truth in the atonement debate is somewhere in the middle. Somehow the two aspects work together.
I’m just glad I’m saved!
Ditto to Karen O in 96.
Anlir, I got both Monty Python references in 78 - that’s why I had to laugh.
Hope the shake helps tonight.
Monty Python’s Holy Grail is an acquired taste, and we did acquire it here at the house.
A kid at church came dressed as a knight clacking two coconut shells. The ones who laughed were the ones in the know.
His mom put him up to it.
I moved the smiley with the blockquote function, Make it Man!
I am teachable!
Yeah!
Thanks.
“Are you saying that nobody deserves to go to hell?”
I would assert that no one including Hitler deserves eternal damnation because everyone’s sins are finite. Infinite punishment for finite sins are the worst case of the punishment not fitting the crime.
The kernel of truth evangelicals have is everyone is imperfect or everyone has sinned. Fine, I stole a $1.00 comic book when I was 13. Do I deserve eternal damnation for that? I don’t think so. As for my being a “thief,” I’d say I deserve about 5 minutes in purgatory for that one.
And quite frankly, in order to determine the “justness” of all of this, we have to understand what Hell is really like. The vast majority of human beings, imperfect as they may be, don’t deserve to spend one minute in a place that is a torture chamber. Humans intuitively understand that torture on Earth violates human rights. What makes it “just” if some all powerful Cosmic Being decides to implement it? When Hitler does something it’s evil, but when God does the same thing or worse it is “just” because it’s God doing it?
That’s where the logic of eternal damnation and traditional beliefs about Hell will lead us.
Jon Rowe- Yes our sins are finite, but we sin against an infinite God. We all deserve hell, but God in his mercy saves some. The thing most people do not get when it comes to God’s sovereignty is not that He saves some and damns others, but that He saves anyone! When Adam sinned, he represented every one of us, we all have sinned and deserve to be thrown in Hell for it (Rom 6.23). The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ atoned for that sin. While it is effectual to save all, not all will be saved. If God were going to save all, then the crucifixion would not have been necessary.
Good explanation, Peter.
#44 Random,
Glad TALRI arrived. Don’t get too bogged down in the statistics. Try to get a handle on the one rule and focus in on it. There are only two rules and rule 2 is easy - never violate rule 1.
Sadly, Zahorchak won’t tell you what rule 1 is but you are savvy and can figure it out. If not you can read my book ‘TALARI for Dummies’ if I ever finish it or I will just tell you what it is if you promise not to laugh at me
Anyway, I thought today was the day that TALARI would crack 100% returns for the year - starting out at 92% gains this morning and the Fed cutting rates again yesterday.
But alas, the TALRI Master was unkind today dishing out a nearly 8% loss in UUPIX and dropping the YTD gain back down to 84%. I’m really going to be disappointed if TALARI doesn’t set the all time record of returning more than 100% a year - 4 years in a row. It’s never happened in the 29 years I have been investing the TALARI way - and if it doesn’t do it this year - I am too old for it to ever happen in my lifetime
Happy investing - after the difficult reading ahead.
#104 llama
Thank you. More when I get more of a chance.
#101
I agree with Jon.
#102
I find your explanation unconvincing.
Derek:
The one on the bottom looks like a spike buck.
We have a three point rule in my state…so I guess he’s safe.
Side-topic:
What a delicious little subject being debated here!
I wouldn’t mind getting in on the discussion involving free will/ predestination. I’d love to see the different opinions on this topic covered.
I am pretty ignorant on the various doctrinal beliefs on this…But I’ll agree on principle with what TRS was saying.
And the nature of “hell”,
that is a heavy subject, as well.
I’ll have to go with Rev Chs. 19-20, since we don’t have any better detailed time-lines involving ultimate judgment.
At the end of 19, the beast, and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire.
To my understanding, no one else is ever sentenced to this, until that point.
And then not again until 20:14.
We have a 1000 year reign of Christ between now and that point.
So…no, even Hitler is not burning eternally in a lake of fire as I type.
Before anyone throws Luke 16 at me, notice that “tormented”, there, is not the same word that is translated torment, torments, tormented, any where else in the NT, and it means grieved, not tormented (tortured). And the other word translated torment actually means touch-stone.(as in the crude method of testing purity)
There is a judgment made at death, but not an eternal one, IMO
Hitler is on the same side of the “gulf” (16:26) as the rich man. No where was the rich man’s punishment said to be eternal, and at this point, neither is any one else’s, IMO.
If Satan and his angels are allowed to exist, why would non-believing, unrepentant humans be blotted out at death?
Are we not better than Satan?
WOW This has been quite a thread! Thanks to everyone who weighed in on PCA. I didn’t mean to start a discussion & then run away, but today was a busier work day than usual & I’m “teen-sitting” tonight [actually just keeping my 17 year old granddaughter company while her parents are off to her brother’s college for parent’s week-end].
I’ve read all the comments so far, & decided the only thing to do is go visit the churches for myself. But I’ve learned a lot from all of you.
Derek - love the flea in your puppy’s ear
Anlir - praying for your recovery. I’m not much of a talker, but I don’t know how I’d cope with not being able to talk at all.
EYG - I think to turn the other cheek means not to lash out when someone says something cruel, I don’t believe it means that we should just stand still and take physical abuse. Your daughter did the right thing.
PeterL - You’re in my prayers, too. I was grown with a grown daughter when my Mom passed, but it still wasn’t enough time with her. I hope there have been [and still are] many friends and family members who can keep her memory alive for you.
I can’t seem to get a post through around here these past few days. Whatever the glogod is doing, it made things worse. Some posts take hours to appear. Some posts never appear. Am I the only one?
I’ve been put on some kind of restriction here at WMB. I’ve checked my email, and Lynn has not emailed to say I have been sinful in the Afterblog. Surely, we have all been sinful. Still, none of my posts appear after pressing send. They take a while. Sometimes a long while. Last night I wrote and didn’t see it appear until today. In light of this it is impossible to join the discussions. If Jesus Saves, I’ll take a flash drive. Since my posts don’t post until later, Random has probably abandon the idea entirely and my opportunity is lost to the ether. I’ll take a calendar.
Humans intuitively understand that torture on Earth violates human rights. What makes it “just” if some all powerful Cosmic Being decides to implement it?
John Rowe,
First of all, I don’t think any of us can say for sure what Hell is like. Is it eternal torment? I don’t know. Scripture does not give us a detailed description, other than it is something to avoid.
As for your comment, I take issue in how you are using human standards to judge God. Who are we (as the creation) to question the Creator?
When Hitler does something it’s evil, but when God does the same thing or worse it is “just” because it’s God doing it?
Comparing Hitler and God is troublesome. God’s condemnation on the wicked is an act of justice. They sinned against him, and God cannot let sin go unpunished.
And in God’s judgment, he is giving the wicked exactly what they want. They want nothing to do with God.
If Satan and his angels are allowed to exist, why would non-believing, unrepentant humans be blotted out at death? Are we not better than Satan?
Satan’s time is coming, and his sentence is not one to envy.
We have a 1000 year reign of Christ between now and that point.
That is highly debatable. Many (including myself) would argue the “millennium” is past.
Mr Meaner post 107,
I am always delighted by your thought process!
The new topics this morning don’t seem to be accepting posts. This could be a pogrom against me only, or it could be a sign of ethnic cleasing of posts in general.
Nope, RN, I’m having the same problem–no conspiracy for you!
Count me among the “can’t post-ers”. What gives?
Well, I’m glad to see the old threads still work. I’ve sent an email - probably one of many they’ve received.
Pauline,
It didn’t even occur to me to send an email–they keep a pretty close eye on this place and I guess I figured they’d notice.
Your way is much more productive!
And in God’s judgment, he is giving the wicked exactly what they want. They want nothing to do with God.
Well as a theistic-agnostic I can tell in reading certain passages of the Bible, I wouldn’t want anything to do with, for instance the Being who supposedly destroyed all of humanity in the flood except for a handfull. However, I far less would like to spend time in an eternal torture chamber (and I am far less deserving of eternal torture than Heaven). If on the other hand Hell is like continuing life on Earth a part from God, a place where you can play pool with your buddies and crack dirty jokes for all eternity, perhaps I could accept the justness of the concept. Otherwise you are asking me to believe something that is as rational as God sending 19 highjackers into the WTC and rewarding them with virgins.
just testingI wouldn’t want anything to do with, for instance the Being who supposedly destroyed all of humanity in the flood except for a handfull
That’s just the point. You are using your finite rationale to form an opinion of what an infinite God should be like. You seem to want Him to overlook sins and ensure that everyone has a good time.
Why is it such a horrible thing that the Creator would destroy a creation that defiantly opposed Him?
…and I am far less deserving of eternal torture than Heaven
Due to your agnosticism, you won’t agree with this, but the beauty of salvation is that it’s not something you earn. God doesn’t weigh your bad and good deeds and determine where you end up. God provided a propitiation so that wicked people would not have to rely on their own works. They can attain salvation through the works of another.
…BTW, I do think you are asking good questions. I appreciate a good agnostic!
graceland et. al.,
so I have been sitting by and watching this discussion and some thoughts strike me:
1) a persons interpretation of the Bible (and it is always an interpretation) seems to say more about the person than what it says about the intent of the passage in the Bible
2) the conversation is progressing as if one can, sitting where one is today, know unequivocally what any given Biblical passage means
I suggest that since humans are finite and fallible beings, all we can say for sure is what we interpret the Bible to mean, not what it either actually means, was intended by the authors to mean, or was intended by God to be understood.
My personal suspicion is that what we expect for others is what will most likely be visited upon ourselves. John 8:3-11 for example.
the conversation is progressing as if one can, sitting where one is today, know unequivocally what any given Biblical passage means
Musing,
I would not say that we can know unequivocally what EVERY passage means exactly, but I reject the idea that it is all open to interpretation.
Scripture is full of law and doctrine that can absolutely be understood as it was intended.
this is a test
Nope. Comments still disappearing into the ether….
gracelan post 124,
but defintionally when one reads the Bible, one is interpreting it. One can not read without interpreting.
So the only question is whose interpretation justifed how.
I believe it was Luther who suggested that we are each open to our own interpretation (as indeed we must be if we do not grant a God endowed ecclesiatical authority such as the Pope).
It is worth noting that Luther apparently did not accept what is typically known as the protestant canon: it appears that he reserved the personal right to judge which books are canonical.
And I believe we are back to the position I suggested in post 123. I think we have shown a logical error in your ppost 124.