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Good morning!
Today’s quote is from a poet: “He who cannot forgive others destroys the bridge over which he himself must pass.”
(deep!)
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Less is more
Good morning, Lynn. Happy Monday!!!
I have a rather weird request……I understand you live in or near San Diego, correct? I’m also lead to understand that San Diego is supposed to have near perfect weather most of the year. Could you Fed-X some warmer air towards us in Rhode Island? It’s awfully chilly and virally windy this morning……
By the way, could I enjoy my tea with a Thomas Fuller quote?
Justus: I lived in Newport almost a year. All the warm air that was Fed-xed to me was cold by the time it crossed Naragansette Bay.
We have 14 degrees in Jersey right now — it’s gone up. Buck up, Justus. July always comes.
This begs a question: What exactly does it mean to forgive? Does it mean to accept and love unconditionally? To befriend or show affection toward the transgressor?
Or does it merely mean to forgo revenge?
John M. All of the above.
Forgiveness means to make it as if it hadn’t happened. This is much easier to talk about than do. I have had to forgive the same offense more than once. I also tried to forget, which is an important part of forgiveness. However, it’s almost imposssible not to be wary of any transaction with such people. You tend to watch your behind no matter what you are doing up front.
Repentence and remorse mean the perpetrator needs to make it as if it hadn’t happened–the onus is on the one needing forgiveness who recognizes it and genuinely repents.
In forgiveness, I think we need to let it go–desire for revenge, yes–but also the emotions attached to whatever happened. The forgiver can’t make it not have happened, but once s/he forgives, s/he needs to behave as if it never happened.
When raising our children, the perpetrator had to ask the victim to forgive them. But it wasn’t over until the victim said, “I forgive you.” We felt that restored relationship.
Often, the biggest upset came when the victim refused to forgive. My perpetrators would be in tears, “He won’t forgive me.” I then would have to walk the boys through the forgiveness process again. It was very healthy and gave me lots of food for thought.
I love what Corrie ten Boom said about forgiveness in relation to God: “God throws your sins into the depths of the sea, and then he hangs a sign on a buoy marked, ‘no fishing.’”
And I love how when God forgives, He forgets and it is as if it never happened. We often, however, can’t forget and when we remind him of some sin that continues to dog us, He doesn’t know what we’re talking about.
Confessing sin and being forgiven is one of my favorite aspects of being a Christian. Because I’ve had to do it so often.
This is what I learned about forgiving:
Agree with God. Yes. A sin has been committed against you. Yes. It hurts. (He can heal that hurt)
Here’s what it might look like:
Tell God, “When ______ did (name specific offense)I felt_____” (possibilities: hurt. humiliated. betrayed, violated)
Pour your heart and mind out to God and ask for the grace to forgive recognizing that God was wronged even worse, and he forgives us.
As an act of your will, say (and actually do) forgive that person for their offense.
Tell God you forgo any ‘rights’ to revenge, that you commit the whole offense, the other party and your need for healing into God’s hands.
You can also repent of any of the almost automatic sinful responses we have to being sinned against, anger, rage, slander, gossip, malice… you know. The fruits of the flesh. Through confession (1John 1:9), ask God to replace the fruits of the flesh with the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
After your heart is clean, you will discover that you are granted a type of divine objectivity that actually enables you to pray for the other person.
I think that’s impossible without God’s grace. It’s so counter-intuitive to pray for those who trespass against us.
This wasn’t meant to sound formulaic. I guess you could say I took a short cut in communicating for time and readability’s sake. I wanted to share what I have found invaluable over the years.
I hope it helps someone.
In fact, I’ll tell you this; It’s time for Spring Cleaning in my heart. I am still outraged at my neighbor over my hedges! And there’s a very rude dishonoring somebody in my life who I have to release to God. I just don’t like this person’s way with others.
Somebody out there, please pray that I can make a clean sweep of the unforgiveness.
In a way, I think we with hold forgiveness in attempt to self-protect or to punish the other. It’s ineffective for either, as we’re left with the poison either way.
When someone really wrongs you, it’s like they dumped their trash bag on your lawn, and you have to clean it up.
But, clean-up you must, or the garbage just rots and attracts worse things.
*rant off*
PS to Michelle.
Like you, we also taught our children to release the offense and the offender by saying, “I forgive you.”
It’s an incredibly powerful thing to do when you do it from the heart.
The only thing I feel the need to say from here is that we don’t need an apology in order to forgive. We may never ever get one, but we still need to be free from the effects (or affects? I get confused with those two. Cheryl D!!!) of the sin.
Let’s move to the sports pages, instead. Three articles today in The New York Times of all places that really are worth reading about:
The Afghani woman who attends a boarding school in NJ because of soccer. She’s an observant Muslim, the leader of the team, and very very thankful for the opportunity to study in the States.
Then there’s the upcoming star HS quarterback, Matt Barkley who just committed to USC. One of the reasons? His church, Rockharbor in Costa Mesa. Lots of good asides about his witness, e.g. taking teammates to church, playing in the praise band, etc.
Finally (same section! is this rich or what?) a profile of David Tyree, and the moment he found God at the Bethel Church of Love and Praise.
Reading those stories on a snow day was such a warming experience
Hmmm… I’m not sure I can agree with the above. I don’t think our emotions or feelings enter into it at all. And I don’t think it’s about relationships, because sometimes the offender HAS no relationship with you beyond the offense.
I think forgiveness means to forgo seeking retribution. This is the same if someone makes a nasty remark, steals your car, or kills your child. This would also involve not helping the state prosecute someone who has comitted a crime against you.
I think it’s both much simpler and much harder than we think. I could be wrong.
Harris,
That is awesome!
Did you read those articles online?
Sigh… I was going to ask you whether you’d forgiven your next door neighbor for the hedges…
It’s difficult to forgive. One of the reasons why it’s so difficult is that you cannot really forget something that has really harmed you. Many times the offense is an ongoing problem. The other reason that it’s so difficult to forgive is that it’s a daily choice. One must choose to forgive almost every day.
But the person that was quoted is exactly right, if you do not forgive, then you will be stuck in with that anger and bitterness….
Justus,
It’s -11 F. in Fairbanks, AK right now:
http://newsminer.com/arcticcam/
And last week it was -47 F….
Doesn’t that make you feel warmer?
I don’t know, John M.
I think you can personally forgive someone (whether they are repentant or not) and help prosecute them.
If someone is dangerous, I think it’s irresponsible to put s/he out there to harm someone else. I don’t think that is retribution, but reaping and sewing consequences.
I will agree that there are times when it is in keeping with grace by not helping the state to prosecute. Perhaps forgoing prosecution (and I haven’t thought this all the way through)is appropriate when the other one repents or sees their wrong and even tries to make restitution.
Just read where Dick Darman–he who convinced Bush 41 to break his “Read my lips No new taxes” pledge–succumbed to leukemia.
So many of us expected Bush 41 to be Reagan’s 3rd term. Darman helped to make it not so. I know the Clintonistas deeply appreciated Darman’s services.
#12 MiM,
Thanks for thinking of me.
You are right. Please pray with me. This one is so hard for me.
If it wasn’t daily in my face, I probably wouldn’t be quite so offended. But, all I have to do is look out the window towards the lake and I see the glaring evidence of her total disregard. This has actually turned into a daily battle for me. God help me.
I do need to go before the Lord and forgive her again right now. Oh!! Why do these things have to happen?
I do recognize that in the great scheme of things this is insignificant. But, it’s my rocky road for now.
Hillary Clinton?
Well, she isn’t much of a politician so she must be a prose poet who believes in forgivenes, over and over and over …… again
EYG –
I’m sure the stories are online. I read mine in the dead wood edition
“Hillary Clinton? Well, she isn’t much of a politician”
Llama, you are obviously a blatant sexist.
Michelle, EYG, et.al,
Powerful stuff on forgiveness, the very hardest thing a Christian has to do! Thanks.
I think Llama’s just enjoying a few things that are happening to Miss Hillary right now. (Just remember, Llama, what goes around …..)
From where I sit typing these posts, I have an excellent view of a flagpole. I have to say it is a beautiful sight to see our flag through the bare trees continually rippling against a light blue sky. Long may it wave.
Back to the sports pages.
Well, well, well, Junior won the Bud Shootout with teammate and last years champion, Jimmy Johnson, bumping Junior into the lead over Tony Stewart as Jeff Gordon, another Junior teammate who finished second in the championship last year and who was behind Stewart as Jimmy bumped Junior forward. Gordon got off the gas and fell off of Stewart’s bumper taking away his push from behind allowing Junior to easily sail past an unsupported Stewart to win his first race in 62 attempts and his first race (in his first race for) for Hendrick.
It’s great to see old Champion Teammates helping their new teammate to a win so unselfishly.
Hendrick’s team finished 1, 2, 4, and 6. I guess the Hendrick domination of NASCAR will be even stronger going forward.
What a great story. I’m thrilled that Junior could rise to the occasion, even with all the help, when he finally got some good wheels.
It’s going to be a great year.
Continued from Obama’s Saturday Sweep yesterday.
Some Lefties are insane. They usually, most always, vote for the most socialist candidate. Obama is that easily and would win a straight up majority vote.
But Night Train is correct. Since some on the left, and only the left, still discriminate when it comes to race, gender, sexual preference, etc today, they routinely act one way in public and one way in private. There will be those who would switch from Obama to anyone but Hillary (they don’t like women either) if they had a choice - without a second thought or hint of remorse.
They have to decide if they hate women or Blacks more. Sadly, this is likely to happen in a very public display at their convention now.
We will also see if Hillary tries to steal the nomination with her secret super delegates (giving Obama the VP as an incentive) and what the Blacks do in response to it.
It’s looking more and more like 1968 all over again
Everytime I come on WV late Lynn quotes one of my favs. I love George Herbert, have his complete works. Great quote.
If there is going to be a Democrat in the White house –and I think that’s how it will go– I’d rather have the Obamas than the Clintons.
EYG’s grammar question:
affect/effect are quite tricky. Usually “affect” is the verb, “effect” the noun. I remember it like this: Affect results in effect; a comes before e in the alphabet. I affect you; you feel the effect.
But once in a great while it isn’t that simple. I won’t go into great details, but once in a while they both work backward. Examples: “effecting change”–which is more active than “affect”–and “a flat affect” (regarding emotional reaction).
This is actually one of those words where I sometimes have to ponder which spelling is correct when I edit, because it really isn’t as simple as most paired words.
Llama’s being blunt today (and that’s okay):
“They have to decide if they hate women or Blacks more. Sadly, this is likely to happen in a very public display at their convention now.”
I don’t know about the “hate” part, but it is an interesting quandary they’ll be in, isn’t it? Do you want to be known as a sexist or a racist?
Honestly and truthfully, I don’t think Blacks will take it well at all. And I also think there is merit in Llama’s idea that there will be those in the Dem party who won’t vote for either, and will consider the alternative (McCain), deciding he’s not all that bad.
I wouldn’t want to be a Dem super delagate for anything!
The search continues for effective solutions to affective problems
Thank you, Cheryl D.!
I’m glad to hear that it’s tricky. That it’s not just that I’m just dense.
Forgetting may or may not be part of forgiveness. There are petty offenses that there is no need to remember, and where not forgetting is often an indication that forgiveness has not really taken place.
On the other hand, there are repeat and serious offenses where we are not going to forget, and perhaps should not forget. If someone has repeatedly broken promises, I may forgive the person each time but I would be wise to limit the circumstances in which I would trust that person, knowing past behavior, until or unless the person shows ongoing behavior worthy of trust.
Giving up the desire or intent to make the person pay is the essence of forgiveness, as I understand it. If I loan someone a sum of money, and it is clear the person is not going to pay me back, I may choose to forgive the debt. I won’t keep reminding the person of the debt, because it is wiped out by my choice to forgive it. I won’t expect the money, or keep wishing I had it back. I will probably remember it, unless the debt was an insignificant amount, but I won’t keep bringing it to mind, and if I do think of it I will remind myself that the debt is forgiven and thus no longer exists.
That doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences. I probably would not choose to loan the person money again. (Depending on the circumstances I might choose to simply give the person the money if it were really needed.)
Feelings are affected by all these things, and are often a good indication of whether I have forgiven someone or not, but are not themselves the forgiveness or lack of it. But they are affected by a lot of other things too. I think I forgave my parents for the hurts of my childhood, but that did not result in feeling close to them. It wasn’t that we had once been close, and then the relationship was damaged by their actions and could be restored by forgiveness. I don’t remember feeling close to or trusting my parents past the age of 5, and I’m not too sure about before that.
By the time I came to realize, as an adult, the extent of the hurts that I needed to forgive them for, they were living in a nursing home too far away to spend enough time with them to establish much of a relationship. We talked by phone weekly until they became too ill for even that, but while I no longer resented even that level of contact with them, I felt no real affection, only a vague pity, and the kind of interest you try to extend to people you don’t know very well but who need someone to listen and show an interest in their lives.
So it’s affecting change that leaves a lasting effect?
“I’d rather have the Obamas than the Clintons.”
I just read about Mrs. Obama this morning, and I think I like her already. She’s made it very clear that her children are to come first, and that her primary job is as a parent, not first lady. I like that. A lot.
The other thing I like about the Obama’s are that they are frank and honest about their relationship. The media, and campaign managers aren’t that comfortable with that, but hey, it’s real. They’re not paper cutouts.
If I didn’t disagree so much with Senator Obama’s politics (snort! “Tax cuts for the rich.” Indeed!) I might just vote for him. He’s a much more pleasant candidate than Hillary or Bill ever were….
I read that article, too, Make it Man.
I kinda liked her, too.
She’ll be championing an important cause just by focusing on her children. Quite a far cry from, “I could have stayed home and baked cookies…” (Indeed!)
BTW, We visited The Notter School of Pastry Arts. One of the instructors told us that one of the assistance made the most outrageous chocolate cookies that morning and that they were almost instantly gone.
I wish i could have seen or tasted such a cookie. These people take pastry to a whole new level!
What happened to the Clinton cookies thread?
I used to think God forgave and forgot, but Mrs. L pointed out that the Bible never says God forgets our sins, only that he does not remember them i.e. does not recall them or bring them up when we sin again. Which brings up the question, is it possible for God, who knows all things, ever to forget anything, including our sins?
EYG #32.
Here’s how I think about “effect” and “affect” as verbs:
You effect a change.
You affect the thing changed.
So your example really should read “it’s effecting change that leaves a lasting effect.”
For another example:
If Human Resources effected a change in vacation policy, it would have an effect on my vacation plans this year.
Which means exactly the same as:
If Human Resources effected a change in vacation policy, it would affect my vacation plans this year.
HTH
I’ve never felt I had a solid understanding of affect as a noun, but it seems to appear way less often than any of the other forms.
Regarding forgiveness, a couple years ago, the deputy headmaster of the nursery school that I administrate, stole a significant amount of supplies that had been donated to the school by the World Food Program. We suspected he had been stealing from us for years, but we never had the “smoking gun”. When we had enough proof for our own satisfaction (not enough for court even if we had wanted to prosecute), we fired him and the night watchman that was on duty.
Although people were appalled (at least to our faces) that he had stolen the children’s rice, when they heard that we were going to fire him, they told us to forgive him. (They meant- don’t fire him.) I don’t have any trouble saying that I forgive him in that I don’t hold any hard feelings toward him, but behavior has consequences. To let him continue in his position when he flagrantly and repeatedly violated a position of trust would be foolish on my part and does not help him to see that his choices affect his life.
When God forgives our sin, He does not usually remove the natural consequences of our sin. We still pay that penalty even though his forgiveness is complete. (Ie. health effects of drug use, jail terms for crime, destroyed marriages due to abuse or adultery etc.)
Cheryl - Since you answered EYG’s question, will you answer mine, too?
Here it is…
I remember learning in school that when a word ends in a short vowel sound, one doubles the last consonant before adding “ed” or “ing”.
However, I keep seeing more & more exceptions to that rule, so that it seems the exceptions outnumber the rule.
Is there a good rule for remembering when to double the consonants, & when not to?
It would be nice to see little kids in the White House again. Obama’s daughters have already come up with some good one-liners. They don’t seem to be too impressed by what’s happening around them.
#36
Peter L,
I’ve wondered about that too. The way I came to think of it is that, unlike us, God can choose what to bring to mind and what not to. If we remember things, they come to mind when something reminds us, and we can’t help remembering. Even things we have forgotten are supposedly stored somewhere in our brains, just not in a way we can consciously bring them up.
I like to compare it to computer storage. There are huge amounts of data stored on my computer’s hard drive, but it is only accessed if the program instructs it to access it. The “forgetting” that goes with forgiveness is choosing not to access that data. And God can perfectly choose not to access it, while we can only decide whether or not to dwell on it when it comes to mind.
Peter L,
God is able to forget sin if He chooses to do so. Mrs L was probably referring to Ps. 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” or possibly, Jere. 31:34,
….. for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. However you interpret it, that’s good enough for me.
Not scripture, but there’s a song that contains the lines.
And when the scoffers ask me
To tell them where they are,
I say, My sins are gone,
They’re underneath the blood
On the cross of Calvary
As far removed as darkness is from dawn,
In the sea of God’s forgetfulness,
that’s good enough for me.
Praise God, my sins are gone.
I won’t split theological hairs here. That’s good enough for me.
p.s.
I’ve forgotten who you are, but thanks to whoever clued me in on the online scripture search. If I had to search my QuickVerse program, I probably wouldn’t have. I was headed for my concordance when I remembered to try it.
Thanks again.
#20 ZZ,
I like prose poetry written by women with sex as the theme. That’s why I subscribe to all the Chick Magazines like ‘The Modern Free Feminist Abroad’
#21 Janie,
Forgiveness would be much more difficult or be worth much without generosity. Forgiving is the easy part of the circle.
#22 NJLawyer,
Is Bill having another affair right now? OMG!!! How did you find out?
I don’t even know why I bother asking when it much more unlikely for him not having one
The robins are back!
#39 NJlLawyer,
You mean Bill no longer qualifies as a ‘Child’? Since when did he have a sex change?
If I were Bill Clinton, I would have to vote for Obama. I know it sounds weird but you have to put yourself in Bill’s clogs. After finally getting my release from the prison called the White House (everybody watching everything I did except under my desk of course) and having 8 years of freedom to build up my black book and get a frequent customer card at the Hooch N’ Smoke, I wouldn’t want to be sent back on a minor parole violation and have it to all go down the drain - again.
It would have to be like living in Hell for him, he is not getting any younger and no longer in the best of health either. Not to mention having to give up hanging elegantly (and free of course) with Arab Oil Potentates and Despots, while hauling off enough of their princely treasure to start his own ….. errr….country.
Maybe he will just divorce her after the election if she wins
Ok. This is enough to make me call my President and chew him out:
http://tinyurl.com/2pcvto
They’ve been working on this Merida bill for quite some time, and it’s all been hush hush. The reason?
Mexico is sensitive?!!! And Mexico is concerned about incursions and sovereignty!
What about OUR sovereingty, and incursions in our country?!!! The heck with Mexico… I’ll give ya sensitive. Try having 3000 of your own people murdered in cold blood and see if you’re worried about incursions! Try having 15 million illegal aliens invade your country who want you to change and run your country to suit them, and see if you’re worried about sovereignty!
HELLO! Is there anyone is Washington who will represent the American people here!!!!???? Try spending some of that money on the fence, or shoring up the security of the borders or just funding the present procedures already in place…
Whoo! I’m boiling…. Time for a cold shower.
Make it man,
Better put some ice your hat. As soon as the lefties get a Socialist elected President, those Illegal Aliens that congress is spending money to keep out of Mexico (and steam you up) will be US citizens and your countrymen - before you can finish your shower. Here is a hint - no shower will wash that off.
Remember - Presidents can’t spend money of any kind including foreign aid - only congress can. Even if Bush is for this he has to get the lefties in congress to surrender America to Mexico befroe it happens. Never mind.
I just heard that a college study found that artificial sweeteners, like those in diet pop, can causes a slowing metabolic rate which makes one; burn less calories making one more likely to be overweight, a diabetic, have high blood pressure and heart disease - all of which cause, you guessed it, Erectile Dysfunction.
One’s sows ear is an other’s silk purse. I would hate be Coke a Cola right now but it would be great suing them as a lawyer (if you were so afflicted).
I’m guessing you will get way more money from Coke claiming erectile dysfunction than being over weight. So, you might want to put your fear, pride and ego aside and claim that you have it all, due to Diet Coke, and that your wife is divorcing you because you can no longer perform sexually.
Only in America can a once really good, life saving thing produced by a godlike science be oh so bad
And people say it’s the lawyers. It’s “clients” like Llama who walk into the office and …..
It was one study, Llama.
Llama, you are in rare form today. I don’t how you concluded that Bill is having an affair from anything I said in No. 22. I meant Hillary’s difficulties in the primaries. Do you think Bill with his heart troubles has the stamina to do more than raise money? Is divorce part of their plan? Inquiring minds want to know.
Wow Make it man, after reading your post at # 13, I will NEVER complain about the weather here again. HAHAHAHAHAHA
Hey Chas…Rhode Island is much worse off, not having you around here any longer.
There is an article in yesterday’s Providence Journal, mentioning that Brown University B-Ball coach is Michelle Obama’s brother.
ajisuun #38:
This is an interesting statement that I don’t think many people realize. I work in a prison and am active in the Christian ministry working with the inmates. These inmates, although they are incarcerated by the state, are just as forgiven as any “free” person simply because they know and understand that they have sinned and can only be saved by the blood of Christ. They are as much loved by God as I am. They are serving an earthy sentence for a crime that has been forgiven by God. They also understand that the Forgiveness they have received from God does not negate the earthly Sentence.
A comment on the quote:
Not to be able to forgive really creates such a chasm of bitterness and (as much as I hate the word) hate that the Non-forgiver can never cross but continues to dig deeper and wider until it consumes his character and eventually leads to his own destruction.
My two cents on effect/affect. Affect in Physiological Psychology refers to emotional or arousal responses. Saying someone had an affective response to the stimulus meant an emotional response to the experiment. The level of affect is the level of emotion. Surprisingly, this use of the term helps me know when to use effect and affect. Thus, How did it affect you? is correct because one is asking about an internal emotional or arousal state. Effect, on the other hand, is a consequence of something else. Examples: The effect of passing the law will be interesting. How will the law affect you? What will be the effect on the population? Their affective response will be generally negative. How much effect will it have on the next election? Nothing! Since few people are directly affected by its provisions. Etc.