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Happy Saturday!
Today’s quote is from Old Hollywood: ”Everyone wants to be Cary Grant. Even I want to be Cary Grant.”
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Messiah complex
uuummm……………..Cary Grant?
Hey lynn.I’ve noticed this on every post on this blog: Pinging is currently not allowed.
exactly what is pinging?
The average person in the world today, without faith and without God and without hope, is engaged in a desperate personal search throughout his lifetime. He does not really know where he has been. He does not really know what he is doing here and now. He does not know where he is going.
The sad commentary is that he is doing it all on borrowed time and borrowed money and borrowed strength–and he already knows that in the end he will surely die! It boils down to the bewildered confession of many that “we have lost God somewhere along the way.”…
Man, made more like God than any other creature, has become less like God than any other creature. Created to reflect the glory of God, he has retreated sullenly into his cave–reflecting only his own sinfulness.
Certainly it is a tragedy above all tragedies in this world that man, made with a soul to worship and praise and sing to God’s glory, now sulks silently in his cave. Love has gone from his heart. Light has gone from his mind. Having lost God, he blindly stumbles on through this dark world to find only a grave at the end.
A W Tozer, Whatever Happened to Worship?, 65-66.
Hey lynn.I’ve noticed this on every post on this blog: Pinging is currently not allowed.
exactly what is pinging?
Hey Justus331, I’ve been wondering the same thing. Please someone explain it.
From Marilee’s quote: “Love has gone from his heart. Light has gone from his mind. Having lost God, he blindly stumbles on through this dark world to find only a grave at the end.”
This hit home. Thank you for sharing.
On a truly lighter note, I just saw a picture of the Ralph Lauren outfit our team wore at the opening ceremonies. Very dapper.
Friends,
Check out the link to a debate between the late Bible Answer Man Walter Martin and one Roy Masters. Masters is like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, a non-Trinitarian who presents his theology under the auspices of “Judeo-Christianity.” How this relates to my pet issue of the Founders & Religion: I caution folks like Joel Mark to not define “Christianity” outside of its historic doctrines like the Nicene Creed, even if it means sacrificing the key Founders like John Adams as “not Christians.”
If one does have a looser standard that holds anyone who calls himself a Christian or believes Jesus the Messiah should be recognized as such then you pave the way for the Mormons, the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Roy Masters to be recognized as “Christians” just like you are.
http://tinyurl.com/68pvs4
Anyway, for those interested in theological debate it’s an interesting and fun program.
Justus - Maybe pinging is the opposite of ponging?
Marilee - This quote reminds me of what I was thinking & praying about just this morning. My older brother, age 55 & an unbeliever, has always sought “the good life”. His goal was to be able to make enough money to be able to sit by his own pool, sipping a Grand Marnier (an orange liqueur he especially likes) & retire early.
By marrying a woman from a family with money, & by working hard at his profession (even when he hated it but stayed in it for the money), he’s been able to meet that goal (he recently retired), & also has been able to travel extensively through the years.
Now that he has what he’s wanted, he doesn’t know what to do with himself. He’s looking for the next thing to do to make himself happy & at peace.
I pray that God will help him to see that it is a relationship with Jesus that is missing from his life. May God open his eyes to His Truth.
Re: #2 & #4
From the Webopedia Computer Dictionary:
What is ping? PING is a utility to determine whether a specific IP address is accessible. It works by sending a packet to a specified address and waits for a reply.
I don’t understand the significance of Larua M’s explanation.
Karen O! You should know better than that! Ping and pong go together. Like love and marriage or horse and carriage, you can’t have one without the other.
What is happening in Georgia?
Mumsee,
If you mean the one in Europe, Russia is attempting to invade with the intent of conquering it. www.drudgereport.com has several articles from various sources on its page today for details.
Trying to help Ossetia get back to the motherland, looks like.
Friends,
Check out my latest post where I describe an email I sent to WorldNetDaily today. Reproduced as follows:
One J. Phillips writes an article featured in this morning’s WorldNetDaily with three quotations from the Founding Fathers — two from John Adams and one from Patrick Henry. The article typifies how Christian Nationalists misunderstand the Founding Fathers’ words. When the Founding Fathers said “religion and morality” they meant “religion and morality,” not necessarily orthodox biblical Christianity only. For instance, from those quotations Phillips summarizes the Founding Fathers’ position:
“When I saw these used recently it struck me that if they are not wrong then their Constitution will not work for those who exist today, because their moral and religious standard (i.e. God exists, we were created by God, the Bible is his word and therefore it should be printed and promoted with government funds and contrary positions are not in accord with the truth) is not our moral and religious standard.”
The following is the email I sent to the author:
“Mr./Ms. Phillips,
“I read your article. While I can’t speak for Patrick Henry whom I understand was an orthodox Christian, as an expert on John Adams’ religion I can speak for him and you misunderstand his position. For instance, while he did believe:
1. “God exists,” and
2. “we were created by God,”
he did not believe:
3. “the Bible is his word and therefore it should be printed and promoted with government funds and contrary positions are not in accord with the truth.”
Rather as a theologically unitarian and universalist man he thought most or all religions were valid ways to God and the Bible was only a partially inspired book. Adams didn’t have a problem with government support for “religion,” but wouldn’t limit it exclusively to biblical Christianity.
[…]
I’ve got plenty of quotations from him explaining how “religion and morality” exist within all sorts of pagan non-Christian religious systems, available upon request.”
That was cool, Mr. Rowe.
Does anyone know if we beat Japan in girl’s indoor volleyball? I missed the end.
Opinionated Teen - What is the picture of in your avatar? My eyes aren’t so good, & I have trouble making out a bunch of the avatars on here.
Pinging or a pingback or a trackback: “[L]ets you notify the author of an article if you link to his article (article on a blog, of course). If the links you include in an article you write on a blog lead to a blog which is pingback-enabled, then the author of that blog gets a notification in the form of a pingback that you linked to his article.”
Getting closer to an explanation . . .
Since WorldMagBlog doesn’t allow pinging, does that mean if you post an article and we respond to it in this blog, the author of the article doesn’t know?
We’re still watching volleyball here, 1-1 USA vs Japan. My Varsity VB player is shocked at how poorly both teams are playing: “our team talks to each other more than these teams!”
#17
Michelle,
My impression is that it would depend whether the article WMB links to is pingback-enabled. But if I link to something on WMB from my blog (which I have), WMB doesn’t get any notice that I did so. Whereas when someone links to my blog, I do see it.
VS update
I am very sad to report that our sister “VS” (real name - Vickie) died of cancer on July 24.
Vickie had been battling breast cancer for several years, in fact she outlived the doctors’ prognosis (of 6 months left) for a few years. (She never wanted to mention it on here, so I couldn’t either.) In the last month of her life, her health deteriorated very quickly.
Although we never met in person, we both felt that we had become close friends via our many (often several in a day) e-mails. I have already been missing her e-mails, & I will miss her very much.
Karen O,
I don’t know what Opinionated Teen’s gravatar is either, but in my mind it’s a dragon’s egg….
Karen O,
Thank you. She will be and has been missed, but we know we will see her again and there is the Hope.
Karen,
What a shock, I am praying for her family.
I’m glad you had such a wonderful friendship with VS.
GOD bless you and her family,
Love and prayers,
Victoria
I know Vickie would have particularly liked prayer for her son to recommit to the Lord wholeheartedly, & for her precious grandchildren (6 & 4) to grow to know the Lord.
Karen O.
Thank you, thank you for telling us about VS. I had been wondering about her, to the point of getting ready to ask you on here what had become of her, since I noticed there hadn’t been any posts for so long. We entrust her soul to Almighty God and Jesus Christ. And pray that the rest of the family may know Him “wholeheartedly”, as you say.
Oh, how I hope others will think about their own lives. None of us know what tomorrow will bring. What if there IS a God, and we’re not just snuffed out at the end of life, but have to face Our Creator? Are we ready for eternity? I had written some to Vickie, and I believe she is now tasting the joys of eternal life. How we yearn for our other friends –and everyone — to know Our Best Friend. But in our opinion, some appear not to know how to understand — or seek for “more”.
I had no idea. I’m really sorry to hear about Vicky. Thanks for telling us.
How sad for us who miss Vicky (VS), but how wonderful for her that she is in the arms of the Lord. Karen, thank you for sharing.
Karen, thank you for letting us know about VS, Vicky. She will be missed here. Please extend condolences to her family if you are still in touch with them.
Hi again, folks! Had a most productive day at the restaurant, and now I am just tuckered out. However, I’d like to respond to a couple of posts that interest me.
Marilee @ #3: *sigh* I appreciate your post. I agree with it wholeheartedly, too. I am reminded of a few people who are considered regulars on WoW(names omitted) who have stated they “were” christians, but somehow they threw it away. They either, never really had it, or they willfully turned their back on God. I do pray they will read your post and some way return to their aforementioned faith in the One who created them.
I am a firm believer in this: while they draw breath, there is always hope to be redeemed.
Jon Rowe @ #6
You sir, are an encouragement to me.
I am continually challenged by your straightforwardness and highly skilled posts concerning spiritual matters. I do miss Walter Martin, as he was truly a student of the Bible, and of course the way he expressed his findings. Say Jon, are you aware of Carm (Christian Apologetics / Research Ministry)? I am inclined to believe you are, since you’ve been familiar with The Bible Answerman. I find CARM to be quite exhaustive in their website content.
In short, I just wanted to encourage you and I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Thanks Justus331,
Yes I am aware of CARM and use them as a valuable resource in determining how the “orthodox” view non-orthodox religions as “cultic.”
Karen O,
Please let VS’s family know of our sympathy and our prayers. We are comforted in the assurance she is with the Lord.
It seems Marilee’s post @ #3 was a little bit on the prophetic side, dealing with our eternity as it does, then Karen O brought us news of our friend VS passing on to meet the Lord. Thank you Karen, for letting us know. It sheds a whole different light on our community here, knowing that one of ours has left us.
Jon Rowe: I still have to wonder why you bother to constantly point out the beliefs of those who lived centuries ago, yet deny the very God they claimed to follow. Read Marilee’s #3 and heed this– You are going to face the Lord Jesus Christ one day, and He will not care whether you studied theology and knew the difference between the various isms that make up Christendom. You need to repent and turn your life over to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Peter,
Thanks for your concern for my soul.
As to your question, it’s part of a scholarly enterprise (and indeed, I’m open minded that these figures whose religion I study have found the “Truth” with a capital “T”). Indeed some of the most expert “pro-Christianity” scholars of the Christian religion are atheists. Jürgen Habermas comes to mind.
But let me explain why your admonitions don’t lead me to your religion: Listen to the discussion between Masters and Martin. Martin clearly has the weight of “historical Christianity” on his side. Yet, Masters replies (correctly) that historical Christianity could be wrong. Indeed, the Roman Catholic Church against which Martin’s Protestant forebearers dissented had the weight of history on their side and they still have a statistical majority within Christendom. Protestants can respond the “majority” or “history” can be wrong.
Listening to the dialog as a follower of neither Masters’ nor evangelical Protestantism — in other words as neutral party with an open mind — there is no way for me to tell which side has the “Truth,” in a sense that I can see 2+2 = 4. The debate was a wash. And yet, my soul hangs in the balance (if you listen to the dialog they each tell the other they are going to Hell).
Likewise I’ve studied the debates between the differences of Roman Catholicism and evangelical Protestantism (and indeed, before this conservatively politically correct age of “evangelicals and Catholics together” each side had no problem claiming the other as an apostate Church and thus not saved) and again, there is no way to tell which side has the “Truth.” The historic argument between Roman Catholics and evangelical Protestants, is, again a “wash.” If that’s not the case then why do “genius” scholars with rational minds change from Protestantism to Catholicism (like Francis Beckwith) and vice versa (I’m sure you guys can tell me of some notable former Roman Catholics). If one side in that debate “clearly” had the Truth, this wouldn’t happen. These are not folks who deny 2+2=4.
Yet my soul hangs in the balance.
In other words you/we just have a pick a choice and hope you are right.
So sorry, you are asking me to accept that cosmic reality boils down to picking one door among many and hoping the door I choose doesn’t have a Tiger behind it that will destroy my soul.
Sorry, I can buy God, but I can’t buy that.
Let me also tell you what I think about the “possibility” of your religion being true: I’m convinced that if you guys are right about JC and judgment day, we get one final choice after our resurrection because then seeing God face2face we finally have the information that we lack. See my above post on the inability to tell which theology has the Truth.
If someone can live their entire life in a sinful manner and then at the last conscious moment like the thief of the cross, get saved, then I see NO rational reason why God wouldn’t give someone one final chance after they die. And I see EVERY rational reason why God WOULD give them that chance, because FINALLY they get to meet the “real God” and KNOW His (or Her or Its) attributes (is it a unitary God? Or a Trinue God? Is it the God of Roman Catholic or Protestant dogma? Or of Mormon Dogma? Of Jewish Dogma, etc. Which, if any, of His holy books are valid? Just the OT? The OT & NT? The OT, NT and the Book of Mormon? What about the Koran? What about the Gnostic Gospels?) and can have truly INFORMED consent on whether to accept God. This is why I’d imagine, if folks are saved thru Christ’s blood atonement, most if not all of the human race gets saved because who is going to choose Hell over Heaven?
I will pass on all your words of sympathy to Vickie’s daughter/niece, who has e-mailed me.
BTW, I will also post the news of VS’s passing on Monday’s WhirledViews for those who may not be here much on the weekends.
Karen,
Thank you for telling us. Indeed, may her testimony speak to her children and grandchildren.
Karen O, thank you for letting us know about Vickie. Her family - and you! - will be in our prayers and thoughts.
Thanks for the update, Karen O. VS and I became very close on this blog this past year, but I had no idea of her health problems until today. My prayers are with her family.
jeff
Quite a day on World on the Web.. Karen, I appreciate (in a very sad way) the update about Vicky (VS). On our first encounter on WOW we snapped at each other a little bit, but then moved to a more cordial relationship on this web site, through some email discussion, and by her participation on my blog, where we talked about parenting, grand parenting, and similar concerns. She was sometimes tart, always frank, but even through this attenuated medium of communication her warmth, caring, and sincerity came through very strongly. I am sure her husband and family will miss her greatly, and her memory will live on for them in an inspirational way.
Death from breast cancer has affected my extended family in a potent way as well.
When I met my cousin, Joanna, at two family reuinions after years of separation, I was astonished to learn that she had moved to Taiwan to learn Chinese (becoming quite fluent in Taiwanese and Mandarin dialects) and had become the co-owner (with her Taiwanese husband Kenny) of the well-known manufacturer of children’s furniture and baby strollers, Graco. Her second child was born nearly deaf. Joanna’s search to help her daughter led her to Australia, where her daughter received a successful cochlear implant. When I met her daughter, Alana (now five years old), she was able to hear and speak English and Chinese. Joanna, grateful for the “miracle” that had brought hearing to her child, joined with her husband to use their wealth to set up a foundation that provides financial assistance for medical treatment and educational training for any child born deaf in Taiwan.
Unfortunately, only a few years after I met Joanna, I learned that she had contracted breast cancer. Not very long after that, I learned that she had died from the illness spreading to her brain.
My family is all over the map religiously. (As everyone is weary of hearing, I am an agnostic.) At the reunion, many family members sat around one day sharing their religious beliefs. Joanna told us that 1) she had become a Christian in Taiwan and attended a church there and 2) regarded Taiwan as the last place where one could find children raised with “good old fashioned American family values.”
In the short time I spent in Joanna’s company as an adult, I found her to be a serious and intense person; obviously a very competent businesswoman, a person who enjoyed her wealth (she gleefully went on a major shopping trip at New Hampshire outlet stores), a loving wife and mother, and a pleasant and level-headed woman. I don’t have any other millionaires in my family, but Joanna struck me as a person who worked hard to make her money; as a person who enjoyed it (and why not?); but also as a person who regarded it as a responsibility and a stewardship; and used it sensibly.
Her two daughters attended the “American school” in Taiwan. After her death, the school built a library to hold its collection of Chinese literature and named it after her.
I am not a Christian, so I will leave it to others here to speak of Vicky’s faith and their reactions to her death. (#19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38)
I will simply say (respectfully enough, I hope), about Vicky (a valued member of this community) and about Joanna Nichols (a valued member of my extended family), that I hope their faith brought them comfort and inspiration in the last months of their lives as they went on a mysterious and fearful journey we all have to take.
http://tinyurl.com/JoannaNichols
http://tinyurl.com/hearingfoundation
One more try.
http://tinyurl.com/6qfymw
I also think OT’s picture is a dragon (or other lizard) and an egg, but I may be wrong. It is rather small. I think everyone can tell what mine is, but I will gladly provide clarification as to what it exactly it is, so you can have another things special to say about our country.
Jon Rowe,
God gives everyone a chance, but once one has died, their time is up. Have you read Josh McDowell’s book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict? It addresses some things you mentioned. I’d say more but I have to go now.
Who says once someone dies their time is up? And I’m utterly unconvinced that according to your theological creed, God gives everyone a chance while living. The overwhelming majority of folks born into a theological system (i.e., Hinduism, or Islam) die in that system. The good ole’ Calvinist, by the way, doesn’t argue God gives everyone a chance, but rather, if you aren’t of God’s elect (i.e., most of those folks born into Hindu or Muslim lands) “to Hell with you.” God simply chooses to disproportionately place his non-elect in non-Christian lands.
I haven’t read JMD’s book, but I could probably cite you some books from Catholic apologists like the current and recent Popes or apologists for other theological systems that answer him point for point.
I’m so sorry to hear about Vicky. My condolences to her family. I went back and read her Bio. She was only 54.
Also, Random so sorry to hear about your cousin. You seemed very prove of her.
My condolences also go out to Vicky and her family. It’s sad when someone dies so young. I’m hoping she welcomed Bernie Mac to make her and God and everyone else there laugh.
Two things, Jon:
“It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the judgment” Epistle to the Hebrews 9:27
“The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God’” Psalm 14:1. (Another possible translation is “…heart, ‘No, God,’” which seems to be what you have said.) Since you are very educated, that makes you an educated fool.
Peter,
I never said I was an atheist; I am not. I’m still assume that if the Bible/premises of orthodox Christianity are true that men get one last chance at the judgment after they die to accept Christ. Otherwise God would be about as fair He who would send 19 highjackers into the World Trade Center and reward them with Virgins.
KBells,
Thank you for your comment. I do think I interpret the word “proud” in a different fashion than many people here do.
I had little to do with raising my cousin Joanna, so I don’t think I should be “proud” of her. I was impressed with her, and as a person related to her, I vainly bask in her reflected glory.
The interesting story about Joanna was that when she and her younger sister were pre-teens, her parents (my aunt and uncle) required them to spend their summers earning money working in the berry fields with migrant workers in Southern California. They said something along the lines of As an American, you have opportunities that many people do not get. We want you to appreciate this opportunity and use it well.
That strikes me as a fairly good strategy for raising an unspoiled millionaire, and they had every reason to be proud of their children.
Marilee’s quote in comment #3 is a good start for a Whirled Views and produced some good comments in turn.
It focuses on the issues we all–Christians and atheists alike, have to focus on. To me they boil down to Why live? and Why be good?
Christianity provides an answer that works for many people and does not work for many other people.
At the very least, we can be courteous when we talk to each other about these questions, though I do not present myself as a role model, so I am setting this comment on fire in honor of the eternal flame of the Olympics.
#1
Actually, Archibald Alec Leach said it.
Like his name, much about Cary was very ambiguous,including his sexuality.
I’m not sure WOW really wants to go there.
“Christianity provides an answer that works for many people and does not work for many other people.”
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Happy Sunday!
Jon Rowe: get the Ontological Argument and give it a read.
I’m still assume that if the Bible/premises of orthodox Christianity are true that men get one last chance at the judgment after they die to accept Christ.
LOL, anyone who writes something like that is an educated fool indeed!
Jeff,
I think it’s a real shame that you believe that. I would think you and the others here would at least hold out hope (as opposed to laughing it off) that this is reality, that you unsaved loved ones might have one last chance.
The Roman Catholic Church by the way has reformed its teachings on salvation in exactly this manner. They don’t believe all will be saved, but hold out hope for such a possibility.
Jon,
We all put our faith in one thing or another, and as Bible-believing Christians (who believe the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God), some of us believe what the Bible says.
Like the verse Peter L quoted, “It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.”
If the Bible isn’t true, then you have nothing to worry about and we are making “much ado about nothing,” but if we are correct, then you have much to worry about. So are you willing to take that risk? It’s like saying “I don’t believe in gravity, so I can jump off the building and not get hurt.” Just because you don’t believe in something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
And no, it makes no sense to me that God would let people have yet another chance to accept him after they die. (I’m not even using the Bible here)
The reason I say that is because faith and belief are at the heart of Christianity, and faith is essentially believing in something you can’t see, taste, touch, and otherwise physically experience.
I mean you won’t hear God saying “I am real! We have the Bible now, and if people refuse to believe it, then they are too late when they die. It’s not faith if you can see God.
And no, I am not a Roman Catholic…or Calvinist, or Arminian, or member of a certain denomination.
I’m just a Christian who believes God and his Word and is seeking for truth.
I mean you won’t hear God saying “I am real! We have the Bible now, and if people refuse to believe it, then they are too late when they die. It’s not faith if you can see God.
So it only counts if you believe before you have adequate information? God condemns the sincere but mistaken soul who only comes to faith once able to see fully?
That kind of God would be a monster, and that belief negates every word in the Bible about God’s mercy. You can have it.
jon: Outkast laughs off everything that doesn’t fit his narrowly simplistic belief system. It’s the closest he can get to rational argument.
Well put Steve. Rio that’s what you say. But if I pinned you down to make a theological confession I’m sure you would fit in a box like “orthodox Trinitarian evangelical Protestant.”
The question I ask you: What if Roy Masters is right? Masters claims to believe in the infallibility of the same Bible that you do and says you cannot believe that Jesus is God and be saved. He says Jesus role is to lead men to God and he can’t do that for your if you worship him and erroneously think he’s God.
The problem for you is that you think you have Pascal’s Wager adequately hedged. Pascal’s Wager makes the penultimate logical fallacy of the “false dichotomy.”
Jon, Random, SteveG - God is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. If you are truly seeking Him, You will find what you seek. But You will find Him on His terms and not your own.
Jon -
You have written a lot of nonsense on this thread regarding Salvation.
When you spout off as you have above, it’s proof that you have no idea what the Word of God says, only that you cause up-roar. Your questions and comments are unlearned, that’s obvious from the ‘get go’- I can assure you no one is laughing. I for one would think you would think your comments through before you put them up here.
You have skimmed over some material somewhere, (I have an idea where this might have come from) and then throw it out as BAIT, in hopes to ENTERTAIN yourself on the blog. You tried this same approach of late, (Whirled News) regarding President Adama and a few other signers, it didn’t work out for you.
I just got around to reading “Notable Books” in this week’s World. It discusses books about China. I would like to add to that list, Safely Home by Randy Alcorn. It’s a novel primarily about the house church in China. The book isn’t a mystery. The title tells the last page. But it provieds interesting insight into the situation in parts of China.
Well worth reading.
It appears we have a ’sock puppet’ who has returned, double duty - same name, different posters.
Victoria,
Who is “President Adama.” I don’t know what you are talking about.
And I assure you my thoughts of eternal damnation represent my heartfelt conviction and are not meant to cause an “up-roar.”
Oh I got you you meant “President Adams.”
And again, I assure you every quotation I offered here about President Adams is accurate and can be found in the primary sources regardless of whether you believe it or not.
Victoria - I’m kinda dense about these things. Could you give me some clues/hints as to whom you are referring?
Jon,
It was a TYPO, certainly you could figure that one out,
- maybe you couldn’t/can’t -
President Adams
Karen,
I would love to but not just yet.
How is VS’s family? I’m so glad she had you for a good friend.
Thank you, Victoria, & I am glad I had her as a friend.
Her niece says they’re handling it fairly well, though of course they miss her. Vickie was ready to go, & they prayed the Lord to take her “home”, which He did. She was surrounded by several family members when she passed.
Karen,
It’s the missing part thats so painful. The LORD is merciful, and now she is with HIM.
Rio wrote: “If the Bible isn’t true, then you have nothing to worry about and we are making “much ado about nothing,” but if we are correct, then you have much to worry about.”
This is what my high school biology teacher used to say! What memories you brought back.
There are those here who just can’t face up to the fact that they have to make the decision about faith and Christ while they’re alive. They live in a world where they can’t face consequences (i.e., Scroopy in the Edwards thread saying “evolution made me do it.” God will render his judgment, but as Jesus said, “when I judge, my judgment is true.” Blame God all you want, call him a monster, but he isn’t committing the sins. He merely weighs the balances. If you don’t want to be found wanting, do something about it now. Stop making excuses (like evolution is responsible), and if you can’t, then be prepared to man up and take your punishment in the end. Jesus said all those who call his name at the end will not be saved.
Jon,
“Protestant” is a rather broad term.
There are many denominations of Protestants, but I probably differ in at least one way from most of them, if not all. If you really want to try to pin my religious beliefs down, I can state them sometime. Speaking of some other things you said:
Roy Masters can’t possibly use the Bible and claim that it is infallible say that Jesus is not God, or he’s quite, um, in error, to say the least.
Of course he may be using a translation that confusing the meaning of Scripture and leaves out verses. Otherwise it’s impossible to read John 1:1 and 10:30 and many other verses and reconcile that with Masters’ beliefs. As for the “false dichotomy” fallacy, it isn’t applicable in this situation, because there are only two things that will happen to you after you die-go to heaven or hell. If you only have two choices, pretending there are lots of ways to heaven, or something else that gives you lots of options may make you happy, but it won’t help you. If there are truly only two options, lying to you and saying there are many different choices would be doing you a grave disservice. If you wish to believe that there are many (equally correct) paths to choose from, that’s your choice and I can’t change you, but I can only tell you what I know to be true.
SteveG,
I believe God works in the hearts of different people at different times, so that they have a choice to follow him if they are seeking for the Truth. He reveals himself to them when he chooses to, so that they are “without excuse.”
(Romans 1:20)
NJL,
I just watched the Rich Christiano film Unidentified with my family a couple of days ago, and the line I said is used in the movie in slightly different words. But I didn’t really get it from there, it just reminded me of those words.
“Roy Masters can’t possibly use the Bible and claim that it is infallible say that Jesus is not God, or he’s quite, um, in error, to say the least.
“Of course he may be using a translation that confusing the meaning of Scripture and leaves out verses. Otherwise it’s impossible to read John 1:1 and 10:30 and many other verses and reconcile that with Masters’ beliefs.”
Did you listen to the program I linked to here? He does exactly this. And furthermore, he’s not stupid; he sounds as intelligent as Walter Martin. And even Martin admits that he believes Masters actually believes in his position. Though a “dissident” position, biblical unitarians have long argued that the infallible Bible as a final authority proves Jesus to be subordinate to the Father, and not God. It is a “dissident” position within Christendom (arguably it is not “historic Christianity” but something else). But you are utterly the position is “impossible” to argue from the Bible’s text alone.
So it seems that there are more than two options? Or, if not then let me ask you: What “option” is Roy Masters (or the Mormons for that matter) choosing? Because he (they) seems to genuinely believe he has chosen God or Heaven over Hell?
Should have read: But you are utterly mistaken that [Roy Masters’] position [biblical unitarianism] is “impossible” to argue from the Bible’s text alone.
I saw this funny on one of my favorite webcomics this evening. I thought it good enough to share…
In the very best Burma-Shave tradition, this little joke was inserted into the storyline of the comic via the hand lettered sign, and you read it one frame at a time until you got to the punchline.
Read the comic here:
http://www.sheldoncomics.com/
I can safely say this webcomic is not only pretty good, it’s clean.
Jon, Would you mind telling me how Roy Masters and others who think like him reconcile their beliefs with those verses?
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/
Something else Roy Masters claims is that he does not sin. Note, he doesn’t say he is “without sin”; before he was saved he sinned. But once one becomes saved, Masters argues, one must no longer sin.
This was an interesting point of contention in their debate. The dominate position in historic Christianity, I believe, is that one continues to be a sinner until death but has spiritual freedom from sin’s consequences. There is also scriptural support for Masters’ position that once one is saved, one no longer sins.
Years ago, I listened to Roy Masters on the radio from time to time. I’m trying to come up with a polite way of saying that he struck me as about 36 cans short of a six-pack.
Jon, if you want to flame me, go ahead.
Is Roy Masters the Radio Roy who puts me to sleep at night? That guy is a exactly what Random says. I’ll have to remember that quip.
I actually agree with Random that Roy Masters has wacky positions (he claims to have invented some kind of free energy source from gravity) and let me repeat, I’m not a follower. However, and I mean no disrespect, one reason why Masters actually appeals to evangelicals and fundamentalists is that they often have just as wacky position. There is a reason why WorldNetDaily is a journalistic venture between the extreme evangelicals (Joe Farah) and some of Roy Masters’ cohort (David Kupelian) (if you research this you’ll see that Masters is intimately connected with WND and some of Masters notable followers include not just Kupelian but Michael Savage, Jessee Lee Peterson and Matt Drudge; supposedly John Wayne was a follower).
Masters has talent in the same way that someone like Kent Hovind has talent: A smart guy, a good public speaker, probably would make an excellent trial attorney, but peddles some wacky stuff.
I think he held his own against the Bible answer man and I am using him as a foil — a “tit for tat” against evangelical views that I might disagree with.
#76 Peter L
Thank you. Flattery works well on me unless laid on too thick.
#77 Jon
I agree. Well, I think I do.
Well, Masters has clearly thought of some “interesting” explanations for passages and verses in scripture. About the sinning after becoming a Christian, I wonder how he interprets this:
Rom. 7:13-21
As for the Catholic Church’s monopoly on the Bible and other religious matters around the Middle Ages and after, it was certainly not justified, because one of the freedoms that makes our country special is the freedom of religion. Which means you don’t get burned or hanged if you disagree with an established religion.
Rio,
Which means you don’t get burned or hanged if you disagree with an established religion.
Rio, my impression is that overall, Protestants have a better record in this regard. However, it is not impeccable. In Massachusetts, Puritans hanged some Quakers for preaching the wrong way, including a middle-aged woman, mother of several children.
Roger Williams, who was a sincere Christian (though eccentric) had to flee to Rhode Island to avoid persecution. This does not mean that Puritans were on the whole evil, but some people on this web site, notably Joel Mark, has some difficulty admitting problems such as these.
Exactly. I have named several Protestant groups in particular that have persecuted those that disagreed with them, and I find that rather sad. I would have liked for them to live in peace together, since they were all Christians. And no, I am not going to say that Puritans are evil, because while they had several things to mar their reputation, so did many other groups. And they were known to have high standards.
As for the Catholic Church’s monopoly on the Bible and other religious matters around the Middle Ages and after, it was certainly not justified, because one of the freedoms that makes our country special is the freedom of religion. Which means you don’t get burned or hanged if you disagree with an established religion.
Well, yeah. That’s one of the reasons I, as a political libertarian, like Protestantism over Roman Catholicism. My point was that by putting interpretation of the Bible into the hands of ordinary folks and individual ministers, there is no logical “stopping point” at those doctrines of orthodoxy (those found in the Nicene and subsequent orthodox Creeds) that Roman Catholics and Evangelicals hold in common. Along come Protestants the Unitarians, Roy Masters, and the Jehovah’s Witnesses using the Bible alone to deny orthodoxy. And along come liberal Protestants who argue the Bible isn’t infallible. And along come the Mormons who add an entire new Testament to the Canon. Welcome to what Protestantism has wrought.
Personally I don’t have a problem with all of this; I like religious diversity. But then again, I’m not an “historic” or “orthodox” Christian.
Given, the majority is not always right, but in this case, the trinity and 66 books of the Bible have been accepted by most Christian denominations.
(with a few exceptions, of course)
True, but what “Protestantism” is all about is “dissenting” or “protest,” and challenging majority rule. In this sense — political Protestantism — I think is what gave Western Civilization the notion of religious and political liberty. But, groups like Roy Masters, the JWs, the Unitarians, the Mormons all stand proudly in that tradition of political Protestantism.