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At Dissent magazine, Dan Carter asks, “Is there still a South? And does it matter?” Carter, a recent Douglas Southall Freeman Professor at the University of Richmond, reviews a handful of books that say the South is done. It’s no secret that the South, for most of its existence, could be called the only truly homogenous culture within (and for a time, outside) the United States. But some writers are now saying the South is full of just plain old middle class conservatives, just like the rest of the red states and the suburban areas of the blue ones.
If you’re a student of politics, of race, and of the South, you might enjoy reading his reviews.
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As a Southerner, I’d have to say that much of the Southern culture has disappeared. Here in Atlanta there are still some vestiges of it. The most noticeable is the basic Southern manners.
People are still polite, especially in their public interactions with each other. Most of us had mommas who pounded it into us. You see it in store clerks and waiters who are just plain nice. You see it in little things like people holding the door for another person. You still have people that say “sir” and “maam”. It’s slowly disappearing, but it’s still very much in evidence.
Women. I’ll probably catch heck for this, but women in the South are still treated with respect and a special deference. You still hold the door open for a lady. You give her your seat in a waiting room. For example, the other day I was in the bookstore sitting in a chair. It was crowded and all the seats were taken. A lady walked by to see if there were any seats available. I stood up and offered her mine. It’s just the right thing to do. My momma would have tanned my hide if I had not offered my seat to her.
I’m not saying that people in other parts of the country aren’t polite and nice. It’s just different in the South.
But yes, so much of the South has been invaded by you damn yankees
that we are no longer as distinct as we used to be. Of course, having been born in the North, technically I’m one of them damn yankees. But I’ve lived here so long that I have adopted the Southern manners and culture.
[…] miamipress wrote an interesting post today!.Here’s a quick excerptAt Dissent magazine, Dan Carter asks, “Is there still a South? And does it matter?” Carter, a recent Douglas Southall Freeman Professor at the University of Richmond, reviews a handful of books that say the South is done. … […]
Our business has a facility in Alabama and I love going down there because the people are so gracious and so cooperative. And non-unionized.
I grew up in the suburbs of Richmond. I visit every so often. Each time I do, I see the gradual effects of “de-Southernization.”
At first, I blamed the change on the influx of those from those outside the South.
I now believe that the de-Southernization is happening to regional cultures everywhere. People move to new areas to follow jobs. Nationwide chains of restaurants and stores make every town’s suburbs look pretty much the same. Cable TV lets everyone see the same shows, regardless of where they live. If you’re a Los Angeles transplant living in Richmond, you can use satellite TV to watch the LA evening news.
Maybe it’s just me, but I think America is becoming more homogenized. I think that has much to do with the so-called death of the South.
Well first of all Anlir, do you know the difference between a yankee and a damn yankee? I yankee comes down here, visits, looks around, and goes home. A damn yankee comes down here and stays;) But since you’re here and have planted yourself there isn’t much we can do about it except have you over for a glass of iced tea and be nice.
Second: The South has lost it’s southerness. For one, we have been made so much fun of by other areas of the country that WE have tried to lose some of our southerness. I remember as a child watching One Day At A Time and a girl moved up theyah from Moe-Beel, Allahbahma and stole Barbara’s boyfriend. I thought to myself, I don’t speak or sound like that. In 1984 a girl came to a convention in Montgomery that I attended and was dumb enough to tell us her mother cried when she got on the plane because we all still used outhouses down here. Once in a sales position I answered the phone for a co-worker whose territory was Michigan. The guy on the other end asked where we were located. When I told him Mobile, Alabama he asked if we wore shoes down here. I replied absolutely, we get our first pair when we get married, so we won’t be barefoot and pregnant. You’re crass enough to ask I am polite enough to answer.
Now for the one that is going to set everyone on edge. I think some degree of blame can be placed at the door of the Civil Rights Movement. Can you imagine having a movement like that in today’s political climate? Black people stopped saying yes sir and no sir to “the man” and it eventually fell that white people stopped saying it as well.
We have become more homogenized. One of my favorite stories is that my step brother’s partner told my dad (see I said dad not daddy?) that he just didn’t know what was going on in the world. James replied in his most exagerated southern drawl. “Well, now Bruce, correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t the same CNN broadcast into your tiny ass little Manhatten apartment that broadcasts into my big ol house down here? Bruce didn’t have much to say after that and he and I dad reached some sort of agreement that day not to antagonize each other any more.
There are tons of ways we have lost our southerness. We all get in our cars and listen to syndicated radio programs, we don’t walk anywhere anymore. We watch the same stupid stuff on tv the rest of the country watches. Oh for the days of Connie Bee Hope cooking on the local chanel and her trusty sidekick Estelle cleaning up after her. They both brought the best of southern cooking to the town. The rest of the country even makes fun of our regional food. I bet if most of you ate turnips you would think they were somewhat like mashed potatos. Oh you silly fools. THOSE are the roots. We eat the greens too!!!
I have losgt my train of thought and can’t go back and get it because we no longer have proofing and editing capabilities.
I read a great book by the late Willie Morris. It dealt with the eventual conviction of the man who murdered Medgar Evers.
Morris as some of you know left Mississippi after high school and came out to Texas for his undergrad degree. (He later studied at that other Oxford over in England). In the book he wrote describing the filming of the movie “Ghosts of Mississippi” he made frequent contrasts to the state he knew as a young man vs the way it is now. I think were he alive Morris would agree with the deleterious effect of the homogenization of the south. The advent of air conditioning and the destruction of segregation are perhaps the two biggest culprits for the south joining the rest of America.
People have manners depending on the way they were raised by their parents. I don’t believe that those in the south have better manners than their northern cousins, or eastern - western neighbors - We have traveled almost every single state, either for business or pleasure and I don’t see manners or the way people are treated to be any different - Where we live here in the west, men hold doors for women, give them their seats, etc, in fact I don’t remember the last time a man DIDN’T open a door for me -
What we have observed in the south, is a form of flattery - It’s not a practice you find in ANY other part of the US except the south - Women living in, or from the south find it necessary to, as they call it ’sweet-talk’ with insincere compliments, etc. It’s amusing to see women behaving this way, especially when they come here, either to live or visit -
Interestingly enough, for many soldiers I know the great race divide falls away whenever you meet anyone black or white from your home state or from the same area of your state. You sense a mutual relief at finding a fellow South Carolinan, Alabamian etc.
But as others have pointed out all our cable media is thoroughly nationalized. And increasingly the state level politicos are demonized for the flaws of other politicians in DC who might share the same party but little else in common.
For the record Victoria, I have never “sweet-talked” any man. I missed class the day they gave out those lessons.
Sawgunner, you are absolutely right about finding someone from your home state and color, etc falling away.
I thinks Blacks and Whites have a complicated relationship in the south. Right now I am experiencing being poorer than I have ever been, but there is a black lady that used to clean for me. She called recently and needed some money. I found a way to give it to her. (Please understand, this is not me bragging saying what a good person I am that I gave this woman money.) She came to my house when my daughter was born, took over, cleaned up, pinned all the teeny tiny socks together, washed the cloths, and left dinner on the stove. I will be forever grateful that she taught me how to take care of a house and a baby. In return she knows that if she needs something and I can do it I will. When her grandson died unexpectantly, she wanted me to know and wanted me to know I was welcome at the funeral. Please understand this woman is well old enough to be my grandmother. Our lives are inter-woven. We have a mutual feeling for lack of a better word towards each other. When my father in law was dying, I called her and told her we needed her. She came to the house, cleaned, made sure the food was out, and the kitchen was cleaned up. I don’t know how to explain this relationship in a way that others will understand. It goes way beyond a “maid” and employer. She is no more a maid than I am. She is like extended family. We take care of her and she takes care of us. Truly if I were dying, I would want her with me. Next to my father dying, my greatest fear is that she will die. I don’t even know how old she really is. As I said it is complicated.
Kim,
You are so right about the difference between a yankee and a damn yankee ;-). I see comments in the “Vent” in the AJC about it all the time. There’s always back-and-forth going on between southerners, yankees, and damn yankees.
I agree that Southerners have been made fun of by the rest of the country, some of it quite unfairly. I remember a relative asking me if people in the mountains had electricity yet.
Yes, things have definitely become more homogenized culturally. But even here in Atlanta the Southern “hospitality” still lives on.
*****
Just a tid-bit for those of you outside the South. WTBS (The Superstation) based in Atlanta has split into a local station and the national cable network. If you were used to watching the Braves on WTBS, it is no more. That’s too bad, because many people all over the country followed the Braves on TV. Now only the local WTBS (re-named “Peachtree TV”) will carry the Braves. Us local residents will get that station, but no one else will.
*****
Sawgunner is correct - the advent of air conditioning is a major contributor to the loss of southern culture.
You can all make fun of our food if you like but this weekend is the National Shrimp Festival. Fried shrimp, boiled shrimp, steamed shrimp, shrimp gumbo, shrimp jambalaya, shrimp, shrimp, shrimp. Big, Pretty Shrimp. (One of my favorite signs to see on the side of the road.
Kim -
I wasn’t talking about just ’sweet-talking’ men - what is observed is women talking this way to other women or anyone, in an insincere and pure flattering, way -
OH. Well Victoria we REAL southern women don’t like THOSE women any more than you do.
Kim - we like the south, some parts are very beautiful, we enjoy visiting South Carolina - I hope you didn’t think that we dislike the south -
As far as the food goes, we enjoy some of this as well - What is very different from the South from the western part of the US, is - we fry very little food, we grill it - that goes for meat, and vegetables - We are very ‘health conscious’ which means we eat very little fat or sugar -
My husband and I had been on vacation, when in the Atlanta airport I suddenly noticed something I had heard in a week; people speaking softly amongst themselves. Why are Yankees so loud? The place where I used to work is in the Deep South, but had recently hired a lot of people from all over the country. The cultural divide was huge. We knew someone had been assimilated when they went home for a visit and came back complaining about how rude and loud everyone up there was. The biggest difference especially among manager types is they don’t realize that bullying and intimidation will only make a Southerner dig in. He will be polite about it but you won’t get the desired results. I overheard a co-worker from New Jersey chewing out a furniture deliveryman. I had to inform him that I doubted he would see that furniture anytime soon. Southern cooking is dying out though. As delicious as it is, it will kill you.
Anlir,
TJ was so aggravated to discover the TBS/Peachtree nonsense just as we were moving to KY this summer! We have satellite, and KY is in a different football region, so no more beloved Dawgs games, either, unless it’s the game of the week.
————
Kentucky says they’re in the South, but seeing as we can’t get sweet tea on a consistent basis, I’d have to disagree!
On one hand, I’d like to say that regional metros aren’t a good example of whether the South still exists, since they’re full of transplants from all over the world. On the other hand, city/suburb folks by far make up the greatest population percentage, so I guess we can’t overlook them (as much as we may want to). The small-town South still exists, and I can give you an example from every state I’ve lived in.
The demise of TBS as the Braves outlet can’t come soon enough. Braves fans are the Yankees fans of the South. Be “brave” enough to be a fan of the Astros, Rangers, or one of the Florida teams.
Certainly Flannery O’Connor’s South doesn’t exist anymore, but there’s enough of the charm and grace still left to prevent me from ever leaving here. Then again, I realize that most Southerners are split on whether or not Texas counts as Southern. We may not be, given that we know how REAL barbeque is made.
Regarding sweet tea: you know you’re in a good restaurant when you order “half-n-half” and they know you want half sweet/half un-sweet tea. I used to love sweet tea and I hated un-sweet tea. But, realizing how unhealthy it was, I switched to half-n-half. Of course, the national food chains don’t know how to make tea at all. One must go to a local “meat and three” to get real tea.
Astros?? That’s a yankee name!
Ok, Rangers - I’ll give ya that one.
But the Braves have a big following all over the South.
Florida? We don’t claim them as part of the real South.
Yes, I’ve heard the tales of Texas BBQ. But it’s beef BBQ, not the real thing. Real BBQ is pulled pork and it comes from Memphis or the Carolinas!
Heh!
Three things you don’t order north of Kentucky; iced tea, fried chicken and cornbread. The sugar goes in the tea, not the cornbread. And while I on it. Y’all is PLURAL!!!!! If you can’t use it right, don’t use it.
I’m a damned-Yankee transplant to Northern Virginia (which the rest of Vuh-ginya doesn’t consider part of its state anyway, much less the South) so your mileage may vary.
But there my wife and I were in a Canadian restaurant (Niagara Falls visit over the weekend) and my wife couldn’t find her beloved 50/50 iced tea / lemonade thing on the menu. The Canuck waiter was outraged, and claimed he had never ever heard of any such thing, eh. Well, he brought it anyway, setting it on the table with as much disdain as he could muster. And it was delicious, and she paid him no mind.
Actually, “all y’all” is some rare form of superior plural, too. As in: “All y’all going to the football game on Saturday? I’ll watch for y’all on TV.”
And if I could change the Astros back to the Colt .45’s, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Now I’ll set off a nuclear bomb. I love many things about Southern manners, culture, and cooking. But that nasty substance y’all serve at Thanksgiving in place of actual stuffing is bad enough to start another war over.
Stuffing is made from bits of bread, celery, and herbs, and is stuffed (that’s where the word comes from, see) inside the turkey, where it soaks up meat juices and becomes manna from heaven.
I’m happy to have helped.
Oh Kbells how right you are. You just never can bully a southerner. That man will get his furniture all right on the 5th of Never. Or it will be delivered in the rain. We can be a very passive/agressive type of people.
Anlir I love the story of half and half. My friend Malia orders it that way.
Victoria (tongue in cheek) you will be old and healthy and I will be dead and happy (eatin southern like)
Usually I try to eat pretty healthy but the other day I just couldn’t help myself. I had fried bacon for Chloe for breakfast. The drippings were just sitting in the pan. I had some potatos and onions in the refridgerator. I hate to admit that I cut the potatos and onions into little squares and dropped them in the bacon grease and FRIED them until they were golden brown and I ate them all and did not share.
RR, How dare you, sir, insult our noble holiday tradition? My husband will inform you of the time and place of the duel. I suggest pickup trucks as 30 paces.
BTW did anybody see that commercial a few years back for sinus medicine or something, that was suppose to be aimed the South. I swear it zoomed out from a plantation to black people doing the jitterbug, through a screen door where a guy was putting his hound dog in a pick up truck.
R-ah R-ah, how absolutely right you are. Stuffing is made from bits of bread, herbs, and celery and is stuffed inside the turkey where as my daddy says both become drier than a popcorn f-rt.
Now the manna from heaven that we southerners eat is made from cornbread and is called dressing. And if you don’t like it you just haven’t had the kind I make. I could just eat that and nothing else.
Victoria, OK you may look at my post to RR. See I agreed with him. (flattery). Then I told him how dead wrong he is. I hope all know that I am laughing as I write this.
Food fight!
This is war, I tell you!
Scarlett, you’ll have to take care of your sister Melanie while I’m off fighting them damn yankees and their bread stuffing! We must defend the honor of cornbread dressing!
I knew my Lynyrd Skynyrd 8-track would come in handy some day!
Oh Anlir if you only knew how much you made me laugh when I really needed it. I was sitting here obsessing over someone who hates me and is being very mean. I was on the verge of tears and instead laughed. Thank you.
I think Hoi Polloi has a good point. Now that Walmart and Krispy Kreme are everywhere and not just in the south, there’s not as much reason to stay there anymore.
Seriously, it is kind depressing that no matter where you go, you see sameness induced by national chains.
I lived in Florida, Georgia and So. Carolina for short periods in the Navy and liked it there (and I understand that Florida is not really part of the South.)
#28 I have a joke about that, but it has a word in it that could get me banned. I’ll make a substitution and hope I get away with it.
Polite Southern Lady to snotty New Yorker: Where are y’all from.
Snotty New Yorker to Polite Southern Lady: I am from, where we not end a sentence with a preposition.
Polite Southern Lady to Snotty New Yorker; Pardon me. Where are y’all from, Witch.
Kim, those potatoes sounded wonderful I think I have some potatoes lying around that need to be cooked. My weakness is fried green tomatoes.
Great conversation.
There is a difference between Northerners and Southerners! Many of the things that make the South, the South are still alive and doing well.
(I was going to make the Yankee/damn yankee distinction, but all are clear on that).
My husband’s parents were originally from New England, but the kids were raised in the South.
Our son said the funniest thing once when we were growing up to let us know, our boy is a Southerner!
He said, “Daddy, when the Yankees marched into Georgia, did they (I don’t remember the last part)”
And my husband said, “They?”
I just had to smile. I love the South. The manners are very similar to the ones in Colombia.
At our 20th college reunion, I was in Boston. It had been ages since I was deep in the North, (to a Southerner, The territory above the Mason-Dixon line is the North).
The first thing I noticed was that Yankees knew exactly where they stood with each other, they said so. I watched straightforward confrontation after confrontation. There were some public displays of anger, and even some name calling.
But, they got all of the venom out of their system at once.
A true Southerner doesn’t handle things that way. They usually don’t call people names or go for direct confrontation. You see a lot more of the “honey instead of vinegar” approach.
Also, people greet each other as a matter of course. And wave to each other.
They use a more creative approach than mere name-calling. You see the “kill them with kindness” approach, where they do uphold the manners, and if the other person is gentile at all, they feel ashamed of themselves and change their attitude.
Southern women don’t generally compete with their man. That’s accepted up North.
Southern girls tend to wear softer colors, and talk with softer voices. They tend not to debate, but relent, choosing their battles.
The cultures are very different. Especially for women.
Excuse me, but I just had to sound off on all of this. I could write pages on the differences. (I’m sure some one is glad that I didn’t)
Also, there are plenty of exceptions on both sides to these generalizations. But, I’ve lived in both regions and have read up on this subject. Many social commentators agree on these things.
We often laugh at the so called ‘charm’ of those telling ’southern jokes’ aimed at those from the north, all the while insulting everyone who is not from the south -
anlir
I will see your lynryd skynyrd and raise you a neil young.
Victoria,
Have you read the book Gone With the Wind?
It is the most wonderful way to understand the Southerner.
Both regions have their charm. I love the museums up North. And the theater. I love the changing colors in Autumn and the Lilac trees and bountiful Hydrangea and Wisteria. A good freeze makes for better flowers.
I like the Clam Chowder in Boston, but the BBQ down South.
A student of cultures can really enjoy studying the diversity in this country. I hope each region retains it’s flavor.
Also, I don’t know what kind of Southerners you have been exposed to, but it is possible that you just might not “get it”. I’m willing to bet that it isn’t meant to be mean-spirited. It’s just a game that many Northerners don’t understand. There are certain jokes that go back and forth and they’re no more harmful than football rivalries.
I love the song “Country Boy can Survive”.
I don’t know what it is, but what a cool anthem.
BTW, Victoria, in the song, he talks about a friend in NYC who never called him by his name, just “Hillbilly”. (an example of how he expects Southerners and Northeners interact) They exchanged regional gifts.His friend got killed for 43 dollars. And he wanted to go hunt the killer. He loved his Yankee friend. He was loyal.
The jokes and generalizations are usually a matter of a fun, ribbing rapport.
Of course, if you don’t know that, you could easily take it wrong.
Some great comments!
“American by birth, Southern by the grace of God”
(I have a ball-cap that says that)
There are parts that have their problems. And there is racism. But the vast majority of both sides get along very well.
(I live in a 75-80% black city of 60K pop.)
There are tense times…political season for instance. Thats only ends up being a race issue because of groups like ACORN. they believe that the only real justice is, basically, reverse-discrimination, and voter suppression. (another story) I work out in the community every day in my trade. There is an unspoken language between black males and white males who are strangers. You sort of notice yourselves checking each other’s demeanor out. And with a polite nod, or wassup…you know your with a friend, or not. Then I treat everyone nice but accordingly. If someone has an obviously race based dislike for me, my policy is.. they better keep it to them selves. And I think it works both ways, and those who are civil appreciate each others “struggle”.
And as far as the old “Southern hospitality” is is alive and well, with a few exceptions who would be jerks wherever they lived.
I say ma’am and sir to my elders.
I hold the door open for ladies.
(or a guy who has his hands full)
I have never swore in front of my mother or grandmothers in my entire 39 years.
The South basically rules…is what I’m getting at here.
And we all feel a spirit of kinship with each other.. until football season.
#8^P
Yes EYG, I love “Gone with the Wind” it’s a wonderful story, I would think everyone has read it -
As I posted earlier, we have either done business/pleasure trips to almost every state, and many times over -
I went to school with many who had come to our area from the south - Tennessee, Alabama, etc. Many of the girls became friends, however there was one aspect which those of us NOT from the south noticed, and it was not IMPRESSIVE -
Our southern friends when wanting to make a point, would do it with all the charm they could muster, all the while cutting their friend down to the ground, still smiling, still looking as though they had just handed their friend a piece of cake, but in fact had ‘just told them off’ - This approach is not honest or polite -
Can you give me an example of that?
Also, I have recommended that book to many first-time readers that say, “I couldn’t put it down!”
I also recommend, “Uncle Tom’s Cabin.”
That era is utterly fascinating to me!
EYG -
I’m a little surprised that you talk about books which I’m sure EVERYONE has read - Didn’t you read these books in school, I thought everyone had?
As far as an ‘example’ if you are from the south, or you have had a lot of southern friends, you don’t need an example - I have heard ’southern ladies’ make jokes about telling someone one off, while being as charming as honey -
I love this discussion!!
My experience with those born and raised north of the Mason Dixon line is that they are LOUD and they will ask you anything, and I mean anything! We are raised from birth not to ask personal questions (older relatives have a free pass) Northerners ask you anything and then are insulted if you choose not to answer. Why do they think people want to share details with someone they barely know?
#38 Loved the comment about getting along until Football season. I know a girl who married a guy who cares nothing about football. Needless to say his father-in-law is a rabid fan — happens to be a Florida fan. The girl told her Dad, “it could have been worse. I actually dated a TN fan a couple of times.”
A Country Boy Can Survive is Hank Williams, Jr. And who can ever forget the lines ” I was drunk the day my mama got out of prison, and I went to pick her up in the rain, and on the way in my pick-up truck I got runned over by a damned ol’ train.”
It is interesting to see the cultural differences between the regions I admit I have had very little time west of here. Colorado and New Mexico. I have mostly been all over the North and South east. I have to admit that when I was in Colorado I mistook some actions and behaviors for rudeness. It wasn’t the way things would have been handled in the South. At first I really got my feelings hurt but then realized it was just cultural.
Nope.
I read them on my own. Education changed a lot from between the 60’s and the 80’s. We read books like, “Ordinary People”, “Catcher in the Rye.”
“To Kill a Mockingbird”, Shakespeare.
But neither of those two books were ever assigned.
Re: The example.
I really did want one for clarity. My friends don’t act that way. I just wondered exactly what kind of insults you were referring to. It sounds interesting.
The kind of Southern Ladies you are describing sound back-biting and awful. I have been fortunate, in that I really don’t think I’ve experienced what you are talking about. (Or haven’t known that I had!)
#44 Kim,
I’m sure you were experiencing culture shock!
You were so wise to realize what you did! The differences can be such a hazard if you don’t understand them. They can be fun if you do.
What do you miss most/least?
What do you like most/least about Colorado.
kBells #20 Y’all is PLURAL!!!!!
I know several Southerners, mostly from Louisiana (I can pronounce it correctly- Loosiana) and Texas (I know, some don’t consider it the South), but a few from Alabama and Georgia. Many of these folks use y’all as both a singular and a plural.
EYG
Perhaps it’s the schools one attends, all the books you mention including Shakespeare were assigned reading, except “Ordinary People” where I went to school -
The women I have known as an adult are not back-biting, they were just raised to be charming whether they were telling someone off, or otherwise - I found this no matter what the social status or education, it really didn’t matter - It’s something most of us have encountered, I believe it’s a cultural thing, which most Southerners aren’t even aware of -
Maybe that’s it. That is true, that the charm/manners persist even during frustration or anger. I irritated a dear friend terribly on Sunday. I was having a major blonde moment at a Women’s ministry meeting and undermined her and a whole group of leaders unintentionally.
She loves me, but wanted to shake me. So she laughingly, but seriously told the truth while hugging me and saying, “I love you. I tried to stop you, but you were on a roll. Next time LOOK at me and I’ll give you a signal or something!”
Thank God there was no harm done, but I didn’t feel I could take communion until I checked to see how people were.
About the books, I reread your bio and see that you’re 54. Education had changed between the years that you and I went to school. Then, it changed even more.
I had to read Louisa May Alcott, Jane Austen, the books I mentioned, and actually all the classics on my own volition. I wasn’t lead to them, and I went to what was considered an elite public school.
EYG -
No I am not 54, my bio doesn’t give my age, or how many children I have, etc. Maybe you were reading someone elses bio -
I read your bio, and enjoyed it -
Thank you. Let me try again. How embarrassing since we were talking about education!!
Oops! I had mentally combined you and VS, Vicky.
(On Whirled Views we’re discussing absentmindedness. Don’t tell on me!)
EYG -
I won’t tell a soul - we all do stuff like that -
We love Guatemala, have you been there? I noticed your dual citizenship, that’s why I ask?
I loved the colors in Colorado. I know I know Colorful Colorado. Southern Colorado was beautiful. What happened was that my husband and I had been married a couple of years. Prior to meeting me he had lived in Colorado. He wanted to go back and his best friend was in visiting family. George and I ended up staying with Rusty’s (the friends) parents. Rusty and George went into the mountains camping. I was left with Rusty’s parents who went about their lives and made little effort to entertain me. I was young, only 24 at the time and the car rental place had put a restriction on the car we rented that I could not drive it. George took it(a Chevy Tahoe) into the mountains. Rusty’s wife, Roxanne was staying with her sister. They got stuck with me one day and made no bones about the fact that they preferred to spend sister time and not have me along. All and all everyone was very honest about their feelings. I was 24 stuck with two parents I had never met, the wife of a friend of my husband’s that I had only just met, and no vehicle of my own to get out of the situation. In the south everyone would have been gracious and entertained me and yes probably resented it. In Colorado no one resented me because they all went about their business as usual and I caught up on all the outdated magazines I hadn’t read. Not to mention that this was about the only time I had REALLY been above see level and I got altitude sickness.
Thanks, Victoria,
I don’t think I have been there. But maybe I went as a little kid. We vacationed in Mexico a few times as a family, while I was growing up..
But, Colombia is in South America, and pretty far from Guatemala.
What do you like? The food? The jewelry?
Great story, Kim. You handled it well.
I love stories about regional differences.
One question, would you allow yourself to treat a guest the same way?
(I had a chilly time at one of my husband’s families wedding. At that point, they were reunited after a military separation and almost completely forgot about me. I was their guest, at 19 years old, and had to buy all my own meals. They laugh about their frugality. But, I had to fight to understand them and not stay hurt.)
About the resenting: My sister in law, from Augusta, will almost kill herself entertaining someone. But, I can always tell when she’s through with it and reached her point of resentment. I only stay for very short periods, and leave while I’m still being asked to stay.
EYG, No I would never treat someone who was staying in my home that way. I might would offer the use of my car if I had two and let the person go exploring on their own. I might would explain that I had work to do and I would be glad to drop them off at a mall and pick them up at a certain hour (this was before everyone and their brother had a cell phone). I would go out of my way to be kind to someone who was dropped off at more door unwillingly while her husband went camping. I do have to say that many years later, Rusty became my daughter’s godfather and his wife Roxanne made her the most beautiful custom made crib set and curtains for her nursery. Of course this was AFTER they moved south and I went out of my way to make Roxanne feel welcome. She really did enlighten me to quite a few things. My husband was/is 8 yrs older than me and had a set of friends that decided to have supper club. Once when it was at our house it was Saturday night after my best friend got married. I had the after rehearsal dinner at my house on Friday. She sent the flowers home with me from the wedding to use as decorationss for supper club. It was nothing special, boiled shrimp, sausage, potatos, and corn (low country boil). Roxanne later let me know that all the women were talking about me behind my back as in who did I think I was. They wanted supper club to be casual and I had rented tables and had centerpieces, candles, etc. Little did they realize I really hadn’t gone out of my way to do anything special for them. Everything was left over from the night before. I never attended another one of their supper clubs. I would fix whatever I was supposed to, fake sick, and send George on his merry way. He fell for it for 3 months before he caught on.
I use the same avoidance tactics!
Listen, I almost always go way over the top when I entertain. I just love to make it special: the way things look and smell, etc. (if you click on my name, you’ll see the article I wrote about this).
I love the little evidence of the southernazition of Roxanne. I think that would make a great story.
Were these Supper Club types in the South, or Colorado? Over here, Supper Clubs are all decorations, flowers, gourmet-ish. We dress nicely, make special drinks, desserts, side dishes, main dishes, and play a game as a group.
I hope you won’t let their gossip stop you. (if you read the blog, you’ll see why).
I don’t think Roxanne should have told you they were gossiping. They were probably a bit envious, at a level. their guys were probably impressed. .
I wonder, just curious, are any of your close friends Yankees?
EYG
I know that Guatemala is not close to Columbia, but many people who are part of South America have traveled to Central America.
I love the people, the love for one another is something no one can forget - when we were there it was unforgettable, the women are so loving to one another, they really care - We visited a Catholic Church on a Sunday night, (we aren’t Catholic) what I saw will never leave me………..the women, all holding ‘little children’ all with their arms around another woman, (probably a sister or sister in law, mom, mother in law) what I saw was REAL caring for others in a way which I don’t see here. They were so thoughtful to us, they couldn’t wait to meet us to greet us, even though they couldn’t speak our language, I was taken with their love and kindness -
Yes I bought jewelry, but I have no idea where it is, except for a lovely silver ring - the people and their colorful clothing, and their loving kindness are what I will remember forever -
#34 Victoria, sorry if I offended you. As I mentioned I used to work with a pretty diverse group of people, north and south, all Religions and political positions, we even had a few foreigners. We joked around a lot and most people took it well and gave it right back. I guess I developed some bad habits, but quite frankly I really miss it. The guy from New Jersey is a good friend. We’re trying find him a wife. The whole thing is just cultural difference. What looks like rude and pushy to one may be just someone trying to be honest and friendly and what are good manners to one could look like someone is up to something if you’re not used to it. But I not sure I understand what you expect. You say we’re not being honest, but you resent a few good natured jokes.
Sounds Wonderful, Victoria. Beautiful memory.
I love the colorful, artful clothing, decor, music, food, and people of Colombia. The food tastes absolutely wonderful. It’s the rich soil and the sun.
I love the warmth of the people like that that you described above. The thing I love and miss most? People slowing down long enough to care for people.
Not being enslaved to a schedule, and the importance of just ‘being’.
Sigh.
EYG when you asked if any of my close friends were yankees, my first thought was no. I started to laugh one of my best friends is from Pennsylvania. She is the one that if I die gets some of my insurance money to go on a great trip and spread my ashes.
Kim,
Out of my 5 best friends, one is from Delaware. One is from Florida, one is from Mississippi, one is from Illinois/Kentucky (right on the border), and one is from Ohio.
I guess the best way to describe the last two, is that they’re Midwesterners. Midwesterners aren’t really Yankees. They have their own distinction.
It’s been a fun discussion. Have a great day.
SUGGESTED READING:
“The Politically Incorrect Guide To The South”
by Clint Johnson
*********************************
“The South has become the preeminent region of the nation, outstripping everywhere else in population and economic growth.”
“The South is different from every other region of the nation. And most of us don’t want to change it.”
“Southern women are prettier, Southern men are handier, and the South’s climate is the best in the nation.”
“Abraham Lincoln counted “Dixie” among his favorite songs.”
“The oldest women’s college and the first public university were founded in the South.”
“The United States was truly a nation built by Southerners.”
“All the states in the continental U.S. added after the original 13 colonies were acquired while a Southerner was president.”
“Southern men are gentlemen, but they’re also uncompromising, opinionated, and won’t defer to what ‘the group’ wants.”
“Southern women are as ladylike and charming as can be, but, like their menfolk, they have backbones of steel.”
We could go on forever, but I think you get the idea. “The South” is a very interesting, charming, and entertaining read from which many could benefit by careful perusal.
Coming late to this discussion, but.
“Barbarians At The Gate” is a complicated book about the coorporate takeover of R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co. & Nabisco. There’s a paragraph that describes the discussion on this thread:
The newcomers, Northerners to a man, stood out painfully at Reynolds. “It’s not the end of the earth”, they joked at Winston-Salem, “but you can see it from here.” They mistook gentility for weakness, slowness of pace for lack of acumen, and Southern accents for dim-wittedness. “They would treat brilliant people as backward rubes.” recalls Larry Wassong, advertising executive.
These people from New Jersey were wrong on three counts. That’s a strike out.
Chas - sounds like that book has made up its mind on those from the North as well. “Barbarians?”
I’m from Richmond, VA. Some will call it the South. Some won’t. However, most in Richmond consider themselves Southerners, as do I.
That said, I will say this: Southerners spend much of their time complaining about Northerners and how Yankees look down upon them. Then, they’ll spend just as much time discussing how much better Southern culture, food and manners are. How boorish those Yanks are. How uncivilized.
Sounds like it’s a case of pot meeting kettle.
Lester:
I’m sorry I left the impression that the Northerners were the barbarians. The book is about Kramer, Kravits and (some R) taking over RJR Nabisco. The title came from a statement a secretary made about those coming to take over the company. “The Barbarians are at the gate.” So, the Barbarians were the ones making the takeover. It’s interesting, but not a fun book. There are no “good guys”. The quoted paragraph explains the difficulty of merging the two business cultures. A lot of that sort of thing happened in those days. That is, takeover of a company by someone who had no background in that particular business.
Does this mean grits are gone?
Grits ain’t never gone. Neither is mustard based barbeque sauce, watermelon, sweet tea and whole hog sausage.
Well, as a Connecticut Yankee, I feel I may not be welcome on this thread.
Just want to say that the way Kim was treated as a guest was deplorable. And I know no Yankee woman or family who would treat someone that way. We Northerners may be culturally different from you Southerners, but we’re all people inside.
Someone I know, who has ministered in towns in the south, the midwest, & the northeast found that often the friendliness some southerners exhibited was only skin-deep, while a seemingly-frosty northerner would be the first to offer aid & comfort in time of trouble.
My point is that people are people. There are cultural veneers we may wear, but north & south both have their share of truly hospitable, giving people, & those who would rather stab you in the back.
Cornbread - How can “y’all” eat that stuff without sugar?
Cornbread dressing - The first time I had this (which I love) was at my very Yankee MIL’s house. Never realized it was considered a southern dish.
My mom, a born & bred New Yorker, likes grits.